Punishment for a 4.5 Year Old

I wonder if she is feeling like this being the "middle" child? And maybe has stresses of her own, because of it?

Just something off the top of my head, that was my first reaction to this.

Maybe, sit down with her on a regular basis and just talk with her, talk story, be silly, let her express her feelings with no judgment but just throwing ideas around kind of thing. I've learned with my girl, she LOVES to know and hear what I think and to have me tell her why/how come etc. And she gets satisfaction from this. And feels 'close' to me this way.

All the best,
Susan

Okay, here's a story from my experience as a preschool assistant, teacher and eventually first grade teacher...

My first year, as a teaching assistant in a preschool that had a pre-kindergarten there was this adorable bright little girl who had these outrageous fits for no reason, other than she was told not to do something...like your puddle incident. She would flail, scream and even throw things at her classmates. Her mother was very concerned, and rightfully so...but, being a newby I was at a loss. My mentor teacher, sat her down and asked away from the kids why she threw the blocks when told to put them away...it took three weeks of asking to get the answer. She was tired of being told what to do...it came out, just like that. We thanked her for being honest, and since her Mom was watching from the observation room and heard what she said, we decided to work on helping her understand that if wasn't being 'told what to do'.

Toddlers have such a huge list of 'do's and don'ts' that it can get overwhelming when the grown-ups can't figure out their frustrations. Our game plan was to begin by 'showing' and 'asking' her to help, at home and at school. Her Mom, had twins at home who were still infants and she realized the stress of infants was creating a barrier between her and her oldest.

Just a suggestion, but maybe dedicate some 'girls time' for just you and her. Like a shopping day or something like that where it's just the 'big girls'.

Kids will only do what they feel will garner them ANY kind of attention. That being said, it's especially true of toddlers with siblings. As the oldest of two girls, and the middle child for a time when my half sister lived with us, it's tough competing for attention. Sometimes doing something wrong is the only way to get Mom or Dad's attention and have them ONLY pay attention to what you've done. I think it's great that you have such a detailed plan for discipline and that you have remained consistent...it's also important to consider how she feels about being a big sister...what kinds of things she can 'help' with around the house and be responsible for as the 'big sister'.

Kids have such emotions running through them, and so few ways to communicate them that sometimes it comes out ALL wrong...my son and I have something we call 'messy time'. We get out a tarp, and get some non-toxic paint and some rolls of butcher paper and just get messy with paint. This has taught him there is a time and place for messy. I've done the same thing with puddles, and rain and mud...

Your little girl sounds like she's being typical and totally normal for her age/stage and desire to communicate. Keep up the consistency, and try to make it fun at the same time!

Good Luck,

Deanna

Hi M.,

I completely understand!!! Boy have I been there and back with my now 9 year old son! And you are not a failure!!

He is strong willed and has been from day one...I highly reccomend Dr. Dobson's "The Strong Willed Child". It sounds like your little one is Strong Willed. Here's an example when she needs to wear a sweater/jacket because its cold outside and you say "put on your jacket" does she say "No!" or "I'm not Cold"?? Mine did, and so I learned to say "Which Jacket would you like to wear today?" (holding two out). That way the choice was his...and I got what I wanted/needed.

My son also, appears to have no respect for authority, but actually (and I only figured this out this year) He has a HIGH respect for authority -- when he feels they act in an authoritative manner. For example...he had trouble with another child in the after school program and went to the teacher for help. Whatever she did (and I really don't know) was not acceptable punishment for my son...He thought the other person should've been punished not talked to. So he lost respect for the teacher and would not cooperate the entire day! The only person he would respect was the Director and so it caused all sort of chaos.
When he starts a new class at school he will try the teacher out to see if she's worthy of his respect. Example:(this year) Teacher told the class to write down rules for the classroom to share. My son asked "Do I have to do this?" ... To which the teacher replied "YES You do." instant respect, he has never had a teacher he has respected more.

I totally agree with you in instant consequences to poor choices. I have always told my son that I love him, but his choice has made this or that consequence happen. He also has to apologize to the teachers and admit he was wrong.

Like I've said your daughter sounds exactly like my son, at that age. Especially if other kids were in the puddle too, he would've thrown a major fit, because so and so was also in the puddle.

REPEAT to Yourself...I am not a failure! I am Fabulous!

Take Care,
L.

Glad to see you are asking for suggestions here. As a parent, I have been at wits end, then seeing someone else deal with their child or even my child I "see the light"!

I agree with the others to cut some of the "talks" at least for the moment .... come back later after everyone is calm. It is important that you took away something she loves - I assume the storytime is more fun or important to her than tv - and I LOVE the idea of reminding her why she can't do that.

Also, you have to support the teacher. True - you need all of the details, but if you go against the teacher and don't punish your child, you are telling your child not to respect the teacher. As a teacher - those are my problem students - the ones with parents who always assume the innocence of a child and the fault of the teacher.

Your act of having a consequence for your child because she behaved poorly will teach her about choices and how important they are. Regardless of the situation, we all learn that we must face consequences for our actions and hurting others is never acceptable - regardless of fault.

I completely feel your frustration over wondering if she is learning, but as long as you are consistent with consequences, she will learn and understand that she must behave. It is a lesson that will serve her well as she will come across people she doesn't like or agree with, but she will know to be polite and not respond with actions that will cause trouble for her.

You are doing a good job - remember that.

Hi M.,
Sounds like you have your hands full with your little ones. I'll attach something someone sent me in an e-mail over a year ago. I've read it over and over and use it as a guide to discipline.
It's really long, but great.
Rie’s Take on Discipline

Close your eyes and mentally clarify how you feel about discipline. Open your eyes and write down your own definition of it. You may be surprised as I was after reading this dictionary definition of discipline: "Training that develops self-control, character." The root of the word is "disciple," which means to follow an exemplar. If one would think of what is to be accomplished, what is to be achieved by discipline, there would be an entirely different feeling for what it is. With discipline, you must have a certain goal in mind.
Basically, most parents are afraid of disciplining their children because they are afraid of the power struggle. They are afraid of over-powering the child, afraid they will destroy the child's free will and personality. This is a terribly erroneous attitude. A positive goal to strive for when disciplining would be to work at wanting to have children we not only love, but in whose company we love being. Lack of discipline is not kindness, it is neglect. Sometimes it is very difficult and even painful to discipline. It is easier to say, "Yes, okay, have your own way." But then what has been accomplished? Confusion over discipline arises when you lose sight of what is important and what isn't. I will refer to discipline as the Red, Yellow, and Green Light. I'll explain.
The Red Light is when the baby crawls on the floor right over to a big, sharp knife. Watching this, you don't stop to ponder about the effect grabbing the knife away will have on the child's psyche, you just cleanly reach and pick up the knife or the child. With "Red Light" there are no guilt-weighing, ambivalent thoughts. You just do what you must do immediately. With the Yellow Light the situation can be negotiated. For example, the child wants you to be with him at the moment you want to do something else. Should you sacrifice your moment for the child's demands or is that not realistic just then? Again we go back to knowing what is important at the time; not just for the child, but for you, too. It helps to be strongly attuned to your own inner rhythm - to know what your needs are, and to convey this to your family so they learn to respect your needs too. When you give yourself the same respect you give your children, it teaches the children respect for you also. Sacrificing your own needs for the child's only creates inward anger within both of you. If it is important that you finish reading the newspaper before you play with your little person, then clearly convey that message. Let the child know what it is you want to do for yourself and what you expect the child to do, so that playing quietly while you read can later grow into hours of secure separateness; both of you doing something independent of the other and still feeling good about your relationship.

The Green Light is when you want what the child wants. You give the child a few choices of something to do and you are ready to do any of them. We all need many green lights in life to be able to accept the reds and yellows, too.

It is not always easy for parents to say "No." A parent's ambivalence, guilt feelings and areas of confusion in his or her role will be picked up and used amazingly fast by children. They seem to have a sixth sense for it. Any ambivalence from a parent will produce a nagging response. Know what it is that is important, both for you and for the child. If you are not clear, the child's nagging will persist, which will make you, the parent, even angrier. This in turn highlights the conflict that exists already, leading to an unhappy situation combining anger, guilt and fear.

When parents feel guilty because of anger at the child, the anger-guilt becomes a distorted, dishonest message. When you "please-whine" at your children and promise them something, anything, if they'll only listen to you, you are unconsciously creating guilt in them. When the parent becomes pleading, sticky-kind and guilt-sweet, this creates guilt in the child and eventually fear. Guilt because the child's anger is being whined-away by the parent, making the child feel too powerful. The child is forced to internalize aggression that should be externalized and dealt with openly by the parent. It also creates fear that the parent is not really in control and is not being honest. The child knows when the reaction doesn't fit the situation. Be Clear. Be Honest.

I prefer giving acknowledgements, rather than rewards. Do not promise a reward for behavior that you can expect of your children, let them know how good you feel about them. Just seeing the beaming smile of admiration on his parent's face is reward enough. The commonly used "good girl", "good boy" often becomes mechanical and is subtly demeaning. It implies a child's value as a person is contingent on his behavior. It can create a conflict for the child. He may think he is "bad" if he acts differently than what he has just been praised "good". They don't need big hooplas, just a strong acknowledgement on your part that they did a good job.

Children need expectations. They need to know where they stand in all kinds of life situations. They need to know the rules. Discipline is an integral part of this rooted, secure feeling. From birth on, the parent sets the life-space for the child. An ambivalent parent will make things more difficult. Know your role as a parent. You must have certain goals and principles for your children.

One misconception most parents share is that children must be happy all the time. That is an unrealistic expectation because there are instinctual desires we all have but can't obtain at that moment, or maybe ever. Life is a combination of pain and pleasure. Young children cry when they can't have what they want. Parents so identify with the child and the tears that they can't bear not giving them their heart's desire. But it is not the best thing to try to keep
your children happy all the time. That is not the way life is. Many goals involve pain to get there. That is the human condition. When children find this out too late in life, after being sheltered and buffered unrealistically, they will find things difficult and frightening to cope with. There is no way over-indulged children are going to be happy, because they seldom get direct honest responses from their parents. These parents are basically negligent. Children are begging for discipline and for structure. A child has a difficult time growing up with ambivalent parents. When you say "No", really mean it. Let your face and posture reflect "No" as well.

Once the external disciplinary lessons are learned, the child begins to internalize - to learn the lessons on his own, and even realize that some things that are desired are not always good for us or for the others. Structure, expectations, predictability - all add to responsibly raising and loving our children. The freedom we all feel deep within ourselves comes once we understand where we stand in the scheme of things.

Effective discipline is when you know your child and you know what works for her. punishment does not work, she will remember as pain but never effective or logic to her.
Be an example to her in love in acceptance and let her know how valuable and important to see her as a beautiful girl, smart and care. Sound beautifull words but if you punish your child and you do not have the effective response, reevaluate your approach, as family you need to encorauge her more than punish her.
naming good things about her and avoid to talk about her negativily in front of her to others. when she sees her valuable and faboulous then she will acts that way. and ofcourse reward possitive.

Ditto on Dr. Dobson's book - a good read and insightful (even if you don't have a strong willed child). While the talking it out approach is good and well meaning, I find that if it goes on past a minute or two, my DC's eyes glaze over and I've lost them. So I try and keep things simple, "That behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated." Then on to the punishment and, "Why are you in time-out? And why is that unacceptable? You will need to go and apologize to XX". Then, when everyone is calmed down, or even the next day or week, we will talk about it in the abstract, "Have you ever been really angry? What did you do or want to do? Hmm, do you think there's something else you could do instead? What do you think would have happened if you talked to XX instead and told them how you felt?, etc." Often, our punishments are swift and immediate and over (time-outs, removal of toy for a day, mouth washing out with soap) but for more serious offenses, they will stretch on for multiple days (no TV, no video games, no play-dates, etc.) and, whenever child asks for one of the forbidden items, we say no and then ask them why can't they have it; they always remember. Another thought (sorry to ramble) but my DD (3-1/2 years old)and I clash, and when I punish her, I get a sneer and a smile. But, when DH punishes her, it's serious. The opposite is true for our DS. And, all punishments are followed with hugs and I love you's and a reminder that the behavior is unacceptable. Good Luck - and you are NOT a failure; you're a Mom trying to do your best!

Hi M.,
I truely think you are on the right track. Our kids just will not always be the angels we would like to see them be. She got upset, acted out, and was punished. I always liked to remind my duaghter that we always will have to answer to authority even as adults...it is just a part of life. Explain that there is also always a punishment for our actions if we are wrong. As adults, they just charge us money. It may not sink in right now, but as she grows older it will.

I used to look at like this. If I was speeding and driving aggressively, a serious offense, yet no one got hurt, could cost me lets say $200.00. If I just parked in the wrong spot, it could only cost $50 for my laziness. Either way, I know if caught, I will be punished somehow. So, for my laziness, I could have to miss getting a hair cut because I lost my play money, or for my poor attitude and acting out, it may cost me a weekend of fun.

It is all spelled out for us in our driving regulations, so spell it out for them and make them aware of what their offense will cost them. Let them know, some offenses may be have two different charges associated with them...(1) kicking sand and (2) disrespecting a teacher. It worked with my just shy of being an angel little girl. I plan to do the same with my 3YO.

Post the punishment on the side of the fridge where guest will not see it so she is knows about it, but it is not on display for everyone to entertain themselves with.