What Is Your Desired Result from a Punishment?

There's been research around how parents discipline children that found a distinct difference between the intent of discipline based on socio-economic status of the family. Parents living in generational poverty are much more likely to see discipline of children as punishment for a wrong, with no intent or attempt to create a new behavior. Parents in "middle class" or above families are much more likely to see discipline as a way to teach new, more appropriate behaviors.

Programs that are set up to teach parents of young children living in poverty new forms and intentions of discipline have been very succesful at changing the outcomes in those children's lives.

How we discipline, or punish, is an important teaching tool.

I wouldn't say "punishment" so much as I would say "discipline." The goal with discipline is that one day it will become self-discipline - I hope to give my kids the tools they need to self-regulate as they become more independent. So, that's my goal. The way I get there is to make the disciplinary action memorable, and therefore persuasive, so that my kids will not want to do the undesired action again. And, if they do the undesired action again, they will know exactly what my reaction will be.

1) to have 'realization' of why they are punished/disciplined. NOT just it stopping. The realization, is more important.
2) to have them learn rules and respect
3) they are kids, and they are not robots. Kids and childhood is FULL of mishaps/mistakes/transgressions. Thus, if you know that, then parental 'expectations' of your kids, should be, AGE-appropriate.
No humiliation, of course not.
4) No I do not expect 'fear' in my kids, of me as a parent. Of course not.
5) everyday, is a 'real life' example of cause and effect. It NOT only being in relation to punishment or discipline. These are everyday, learning experiences, and experiences in which my kids CAN and know they can, ask questions, too.
6) I keep 'expectations' of my kids, age-related and age-appropriate. I would NOT expect my 4 year old son, to understand things the SAME way as my 8 year old daughter. These are 2 different developmental timelines and levels of cognition. THAT has to be realized, by the parent.
7) My kids CAN, 'wonder' about their punishment/discipline. BECAUSE, I teach them about "deductive ability" and thought processes. I WANT them to be 'thinkers' and be able to think on their own. They can wonder out loud to me... and ask questions. Of course. That is what "learning" is.
And it occurs, OVER time, in a child. ALL throughout, childhood. Learning is NOT 'finite.' It grows, changes, evolves, and is realized differently at different ages. Per development and cognition.

That is my answer.

I am pleased with my kids. They are good normal kids. And they know, social appropriateness.

I got spanked- with the hand, the belt, or the wooden spoon. My parent's style of punishment was one of fear. Did it work? Well I was afraid yes, so that part worked, but I didn't go to them when I needed them. I felt like I couldn't. Don't get me wrong, I adore my parents; but that didn't happen until I became an adult. My younger years, my teen years? Emmmm....not so much.
Now I'm a mom. I NEVER want my kids to be afraid of me. Never, never, never. My kids have a voice. Just because they're children it dosen't mean we walk all over them and do whatever we feel like doing.
I'm firm, when I say something I back it up and they know I'm serious. If a situation is too 'heated' I don't react right then, I wait until everybody is calm and I'm calm and we regroup and talk it out and figure out how to resolve it. But punishment should not be done to instill fear. Thats wrong in my opinion.

I don't like to even use the word punishment. I do not punish my daughter, ever, even discipline is the wrong word for our approach.
What we prefer is to teach our daughter that her actions have consequences, good choices have positive consequences (rewards) and bad choices have negative consequences (loss of privilege or time out).
We stick with cause and effect as much as possible. You use a toy inappropriately (hitting with it or throwing it), the toy is taken away. You don't want to listen to Mommy or Daddy when we are doing something as a family, you can take a timeout in your room until you are ready to get along.
We always talk about what consequence will happen (positive and negative, we use a reward point system) to help her make a choice.
We always follow through. ALWAYS. And we always talk about what happened after and practice what a good choice would be.
For me it's not about "punishing" bad behavior, but teaching her to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable behavior and making a good choice.

I've copied/pasted your questions and added my answers:

Do you want the undesired action to stop?
Yes.

Do you want fear to accompany the undesired action?
Absolutely not.

Do you want humiliation to accompany the undesired reaction?
Absolutely not.

Do you expect ultimate fear of yourself as the punisher?
No way.

Do you wish to convey real life examples of cause and effect?
Yes.

Do you want the reasons for a punishment fully understood?
I'm not really into punishment like that - just consequence. And, I would like them to learn/understand from the consequence.

Do you want the reasons for a punishment to not be wondered about but obeyed blindly in a "thats whats good for you" basis?
No.

When I look at children/parenting, the end result is I want my children to understand their importance, that they are loved, but that there are certain ways to behave and not behave and there are consequences to those behaviors. I want them to have good self esteem and to be self reliant, thoughtful people. I want them to trust and love me and not ever fear me. I'm fine with being their leader (I think a parent should be!), but I'm not into dominating and being a "drill sergeant" type of mother. I'm more into the type of leader that sees the person for who and what they are and can become and helps lift and pull out all the potential and help the person truly become who they are/want to be.

I'm also not into being the type of mother that just does the "whatever you want, honey" type of parenting. I think that is very damaging and raises children to think that they can do whatever they want.

I'm for the middle ground. It's been interesting to learn that it's proven with years of study that punishment type of parenting will give you immediate results, BUT it's also doing damage long-term. Most of these children learn to pull away from their parents, feel like their opinions don't matter, feel unloved, have low self esteem, feel like they don't belong, etc... They often turn into being really rebellious or else they are "broken" and become obedient little machines doing whatever their parents want without listening to their wants and desires at all.

I don't say this to sound harsh to other parents. I've gone through my own process of parenting and was normal in using punishment types of parenting (super nanny). I felt like if I didn't punish, I was doing an injustice to my children, but that's not the case.

It's something I've been researching a lot lately. I was raised like that. My mother was VERY strict. I was a typical result of that - I had zero self esteem, was afraid to make decisions on my own in case they were the "wrong" one, I become a brainless obedient child bending my will to my parents. I had a lot of issues from how I was raised. I definitely was quite damaged from it. I know my parents meant well, but it didn't do me well. I was taught to jump when told to jump and wasn't encouraged to think on my own or explore the world that way. I want my kids to be happy and enjoy life and learn from life (and me...helping life teach them).

In my research, I've come across "Positive Discipline" by Jane Nelsen. Her explanation of things is very interesting to me. It's FINALLY what I've been wanting. It blends respecting your children, yourself, and parenting all into one. It has years of research (the Aldarian method...or something...is what it is) to prove the end results, as well as research that shows harm from trying to punish/control your children. It shows that while punishment gives immediate results, it's doing long term harm. This other method from her book has good long term results.

Anyway, I highly recommend it. It's mind opening and makes a lot of sense. It's definitely changed how we parent.

This is a strange question. By definition a punishment is something that you apply to stop the behavior. When you add fear into the equation you border on bullying.

My son is 3 & very stubborn. We use "time out" in it's defined manner & it is quite effective in stopping a behavior & is aversive enough to keep my son from doing it again. All I have to say is "stop___ or you will get a time out".

I want my children to respect me but that is very different than fearing me. I do not want fear added into our dynamic. If you fear someone you do not trust them. If you do not trust & respect your parents I imagine you will have a long & sad life.

The best teacher I ever had was my english teacher junior year of high school. On the first day of class he yelled, threw things, called us morons who don't know how to read and then laid out the rules for his class. He was the kind of teacher who would snap his fingers and tell you to sit up straight.
At first I though he was a total jerk but he had such a tight reign on the class that we went on to read some very adult material and have deep serious discussions - without any giggling or fighting. Everybody in the class saw tremendous improvement in their writing skills.
I want to show my son the world. Teach him lots of skills. If he isn't respectful, isn't listening to me, is loud and unruly in places where that isn't appropriate, or if I can't trust him to follow basic safety rules then we are limited in what we can do and where we can go. It's my hope that when he gets older he'll say wow! Look at all the life experiences I have had!

So to answer your questions:

Do you want the undesired action to stop?

Yes, of course and I don't want to waste excessive amounts of time stopping the behavior with minimally effective disciplinary techniques.

Do you want fear to accompany the undesired action?

Of course not, but I am not overly concerned about whether this is a result.

Do you want humiliation to accompany the undesired reaction?

Of course not, but sometimes it will happen and is unavoidable.

Do you expect ultimate fear of yourself as the punisher?

ultimate? no! A healthy amount, maybe.

Do you wish to convey real life examples of cause and effect?

I try to use them, but sometimes the lesson goes right over his head.

Do you want the reasons for a punishment fully understood?

I strive for basic understanding, sometimes full understanding is not possible due to present cognitive ability.

Do you want the reasons for a punishment to not be wondered about but obeyed blindly in a "thats whats good for you" basis?

My son is very spirited and will try to get his way by arguing endlessly - I refuse to tolerate that. Often he would not understand the reason if I told him anyway. So Yes, Because I said so - and if you keep arguing you can go to your room until you've cooled off has to suffice. I could not maintain my place as the parent if I had to have a long argument every time I say to do something or not do something.
My parents did the same thing and I am starting to truly understand why LOL!

Do you want the undesired action to stop? Absolutely.
Do you want fear to accompany the undesired action? Depends. Was the child about to run in the street or just wouldn't get dressed?
Do you want humiliation to accompany the undesired reaction? Never
Do you expect ultimate fear of yourself as the punisher? No
Do you wish to convey real life examples of cause and effect? Maybe
Do you want the reasons for a punishment fully understood? Well, you can make a stab at it, but depends on the age of the child and the child's capabilities.
Do you want the reasons for a punishment to not be wondered about but obeyed blindly in a "thats whats good for you" basis? No. I want to teach my kids to think for themselves. I want to show them respect with the hope I'll get it back. I won't always get it back, but if I continue to model it then eventually I think they will come around.

Techniques: http://loveandlogic.com/

Why does discipline have to equal punishment in a derogatory way?
Why does discipline or training have to be "understood" by the child in order for it to be effective?
If a baby bites mommy's breasts while nursing and the breast is taken away for a bit, do we expect the baby to congnitively understand it's because we said, "No biting" or that biting means the boobie goes away?
Is that considered punishment?
Why is fear always such a bad thing?
Fearing consequences is not a bad thing. Touch something hot and it will burn you. Run in the street, a car can hit you. Do this or that and you are in trouble.
Why does it have to equal fearing your parents?
Why does discipline have to equal humiliation?

I think people are afraid to punish their kids because that very word is used.
And then, other people judge because they don't believe in punishing.
I raised two kids as a single parent and there were plenty of times they were told that this was how it was going to be because I said so and I wasn't going to deal with any arguing about it. Period.

I don't think kids should have to fear their parents, but I don't think parents should be afraid to discipline their children either.

Just my opinion.

hmmmmm...... my dad grounded and onced used a belt ( I think )
a lot of yelling to get through to us and a lot of disfunctional communication. My parents split up when I was little so then later it was mostly taking TV or Friends or the phone away for weeks depending of the punishment.

I do want my kids to know they are good and made a mistake. I want them to know they have a consequence for their actions. If that means no sleepover or no treats or no tv or ds....then that too me is a consequence. They have never been spanked and don't plan too be. I teach the word of how God would like us to treat others with respect and how parents have the authority to teach and guide our children to be good and respectful people. That people have feelings and they are to be aware of how they hurt those feelings weather it is a friend or a teacher or a parent. They understand reasoning and for the most part they choose to not do certain things due to the consequence and the reasoning. So I have not faced any serious reasons at this point for a severe punishment. But as long as they continue to respect and know what is right and wrong and know God's word....I think so far....we are doing good.

Interesting questions. I'm wondering what cross-section of answers you'll get of the mamapedia community. Because there always seems to be at least one "beat it out of them" response to any behavior question. I still remember the woman who responded to "my 12 month old cries and fights when I try to put her on the changing table" with "hold her down until she gives up and stops crying, even it takes an hour or more." To me that is more than borderline abusive.

I've now raised 2 stepkids from teenagers to adulthood, and am starting again with an almost 3 year old. I can count on one hand the number of times we've doled out "punishment." The most notable was with my stepdaughter, who did not one, but 3 offenses (breaking curfew, and worse) in a very brief period, and not only did not seem remorseful but had an attitude.

We grounded her for a fairly long period. Go to school, come home. No other contact with the outside world. Her dad was working from home a lot, so it was easy to enforce.

Our clear (and stated) purpose was to reassert our authority. It worked, as least as far as we could tell at the time. I think one of the reasons it made such an impression was it was unusual, it was severe, and it was instituted without any additional drama. We essentially said "you seem to have forgotten who is in charge, and we have to remind you." In fact, we may have said exactly that.

Another one - when my daughter was a toddler, she wanted to go down a steep hill, and I wanted her to hold my hand. She refused. I carried her, crying loudly, through the town and refused to put her down to walk until she held my hand. I've done a few similar things, mostly around listening when I stay stop or other safety issues. And again, it has nothing to do with the specific offense, but is focused on making sure she knows I'm in charge and that there are certain times and ways she MUST obey me without question. There is explanation, because want her to understand why there is potential danger, but she always MUST hold my hand in a parking lot or crossing the street. And if I yell stop, she best stop without question. Otherwise, she does not have the right to walk alone.

Other than that, we distract, we praise good behavior, and ignore or calmly discuss problem behavior. We never hit (except for 1 swat on the bottom when I was at my wits end and she was soapy and kept trying to stand up in her bath). We try never to yell, and if we do we apologize.

But she knows we're ultimately in charge, which is the one key.
Parenthood is essentially a benign dictatorship. You can sugarcoat it and pretend you have a democracy. Parents can try to abdicate. But ultimately, you are in charge. Your kids know it (or should) and you should know it too. You don't need to spend a lot of time threatening or blustering, or actually taking away all their stuff (although it is occasionally tempting), and you certainly don't need to hit them. You are better off making sure your subjects are well taken care of and feel loved, so they don't try to revolt.

My parents raised me the same way. They never spanked me and were not authoritarian at all, but I never questioned that they were in charge. It was just part of the landscape.

FYI - My daughter is incredibly well behaved for a kid her age, and not just obedient but cooperative, because she knows our requests (and they generally are requests) are with her best interests at heart. Many people who've dealt with her have commented on her behavior, so I know I'm not just blindly believing this is true.

Her brother and sister (now adults) are wonderful and productive members of society, and have very good relations with us.

So, to all those that say "positive discipline creates monsters" I say "not in this case." Positive discipline is not permissiveness or abdicating your parental authority. It is being secure in that authority and just assuming it as a basis for interacting with your child, without bringing it front and center (at least very often). If you know you are in charge, you can move on to teaching your kids and helping them grow into independent adults.

Well first I have to say ~ Mamapedia CANNOT throw this off of the board for not having a question. LOL.......

I will answer your questions.

Do you want the undesired action to stop? ~~~ YES
Do you want fear to accompany the undesired action? ~~~ I DON'T KNOW.
Do you want humiliation to accompany the undesired reaction? ~~~ NO
Do you expect ultimate fear of yourself as the punisher? ~~~ NO
Do you wish to convey real life examples of cause and effect? ~~~ YES
Do you want the reasons for a punishment fully understood? ~~~ YES
Do you want the reasons for a punishment to not be wondered about but obeyed blindly in a "thats whats good for you" basis? ~~~ I DON'T KNOW

Overall I have to say that I would hope that for example " If one of my children did something wrong and I had to use some form of punishment, that they would walk away thinking and knowing that what they did was wrong and that they will not do it again."

I hope this goes well and I hope that no one wants to beat you up over this.

= )

self discipline means knowing what's right and wrong and choosing to do right. so when i administer discipline, i expect the negative result of their action (timeouts) to give them the discipline to be able to make the correct choice next time. i don't think that fear, humiliation, shame, etc, are the same as integrity and doing the right thing for it's own sake. i would much prefer my child do something because it's "right", because not doing it would hurt someone else, or whatever the reason may be. and i definitely think that a real life, matter of fact, natural consequence is almost always appropriate. i.e., if you play rudely, inconsiderately, then you will not be allowed to play with the others. take a few minutes in a time out and come back and try again.

I have 4 kids & they all have their own personalities. So to all of your questions I can answer yes & no & sometimes, depends on the *crime*.

~i would assume i want the undesired action to stop
~there's nothing wrong with some fear
~humiliation is typically brought on by oneself, but if the crime fit the bill so be it
~sometimes ultimate fear is needed but i wouldn't expect it for every 'crime'
~cause/effect ; there is always an example when disciplining
~ i will go as deep as the age allows me to
~i would prefer they understood but sometimes you just cannot go into a lot of detail & have to pull out the 'because i know best' card

I didn't have an adult/parents discipline me growing up, I truly raised myself. I discipline based on love because I lacked that as a child & i want my kids to know that i love them with all my heart & want the best for them. But my disciplining will only take them so far so it's up to them what kind of people they will be as they get older.

This is such a great question and it gives us all a chance to stop and think.

I fall under the category of authoritative parenting style (versus authoritarian or permissive). The focus is on helping my son to make good choices based on his age and maturity. I teach more than I punish. We discuss the reasons behind rules. We also talk about tough subjects like why his after school teacher has some pretty bizarre rules but he still needs to respect them unless they make him feel unsafe.

I try to avoid humiliation or fear, but there are certainly times when those elements can creep into a scenario. Example, when he was rude to people in public and then tried to run away so that we couldn't deal productively with the issue at hand, I picked him up forcibly and carried him to a location where he could calm down and discuss it (consequence that he did not get to continue in that activity).

I try to be proactive rather than reactive. So I try to discuss expected behavior before we enter a situation that might provide temptations. I try to classify expected behavior as safety related, related to politeness for other people's feelings, and other general categories. Part of being proactive also includes having family meetings where we discuss various elements of character from The Virtues Project http://www.virtuesproject.com/ . That way we have a common language and a way to better discuss teachable moments.

We also work hard to point out and offer appreciation for our son making healthy, positive choices. For example, this weekend he volunteered to help cook breakfast and plant the garden and wash the deck and deck furniture. This allowed time for a biking expedition and we let him know that because his help saved so much time the biking was able to happen.

I think with authoritative parenting style, the toddler years can feel frustrating and difficult at times, but I think the work that you put in will really start to show as the child reaches school age. My son's teachers are always commenting about how good he is at expressing his mistakes and developing his own consequences. He is also able to express his emotions in positive ways and is sensitive to other kid's feelings and reactions. he will question authority if he finds it illogical, though that has opened up some great discussions for us.

FYI, this is not going to go well. You are opening a can of worms with this post.

Yes.
No, I would rather have understanding accompany it.
No--never.
No!
Yes, if applicable.
Absolutely.
No--what's that helping beside momentary satisfaction?

My son loses a priviledge or gets sent to his room to think about what he's done and he can stay there until he is ready to sincerely apologize. He's 8, if that matters.

Good question A.. Most definitely I wante the undesired action to stop. That is the aim. More than fear, I want understanding to accompany the punishment. Sometimes, however, that particular piece of the punishment isn't understood because they just haven't lived long enough to appreciate the "why not". I never want to humiliate the child, but sometimes it happens. I do believe that if you work to instill discipline at home you can avoid some public outbursts that are unfortunate for everyone. But children are children and they are learning and testing boundaries all the time. In a perfect world there would always be ample time, privacy to discipline; in the world we live in sometimes there has to be speedy application for the child's safety. Being human ourselves, fear or concern can make the voice louder or harsher, but not with cruely, just our own limited ability to be absolutely in control in a crisis. Also, the lag time between correction and the errant action may make discipline less effective for smaller children. I certainly don't mind some fear of myself as the punisher. I'm the one who is ultimately responsible and a healthy "reverence" for my opinion and response is alright. I want to convey real life examples, but will take every teachable moment that I'm afforded to try to share whatever wisdom I can. I do want the reasons for punishment fully understood, but honestly, there will be no way for them to understand many things until they reach where I am and have children of their own and there is an epiphany. I do hope that over the course of the twists and turns of our parent/child relationship, they come to know how much I love them and that often - my love, my judgement and my gut are all that I have to go on. They can always wonder and we can even talk about it as I'm not trying to break their will, but I want them to understand that I'm ultimately responsible for them and even when they may just not really see it, they'll have to acquiesce.

I want my kids to understand what they did wrong, and why it was wrong, so they will not do it again.

I have always been able to explain cause and effect...why the rule is in place. Not just because I said so but because I am pretty smart and have learned a lot of things. I know it really worked because I have a total reasonable kid who respects my rules. I could never instill fear or humiliation. She isn't perfect but does a great job (she's 17) at making decisions.

My parents had no rules...I was raised in the 60s and '70s and the were too loaded on pot and coke to give a darn.