'Threatening' Parent Discipline Style

Good for you! We've been very actively trying the "nonthreatening" approach as well and I think it is much better. I have 2 kids under the age of 3.

I liked the books by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish called Siblings Without Rivalry and How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk. I also like the Love and Logic books mentioned.

Good luck and I know if you can stick with it, you will see a noticeable difference.

Change the wording around...
"You can turn on the tv, after you pick up your toys."
instead of You can't watch tv unless you pick up...

You are saying the same thing, just in a positive way!

You know, I'm going through much of the same thing with my children. I've done a lot of self-examination of how I relate to my children, how I deal with power struggles, and if the way I relate to them or deal with problems will actually make for confident, empathetic, and motivated individuals. So I've done a lot of reading. I have 4 yo and 2 yo boys.

Here's the best thing I've read: "The secret of parenting is not in what a parent DOES but rather who the parent IS to a child." (This is from "Hold On To Your Kids" by Neufeld and Mate.) Parenting is about relationship and attachment, not methods or techniques or skills to control behavior or get the child to do what you want. So I look for books that are NOT about methods of controlling or manipulating behavior. Quick-fixes are not what I want...I want long-term strategies that affirm each person's worth, including my own.

Next I read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn. This book starts with asking parents what are the long-term goals for our children. Is it obedience and "because I said so." Or is it many of the things you brought up in your post (motivated, respectful). It asks if the way we parent is affirming those values we wish to instill or are they undermining them. The book explains how punishments (time-outs, spanking, etc.) and threats are methods of authoritative control and love withdrawal. It also explains how rewards (sticker charts, praise, etc.) are also methods of control and manipulation. This book really helped me hone my parenting philosophy and be more thoughtful and creative when solving problems and disputes. Maybe you'll like it too. This book gets slammed on Amazon reviews for only suggesting what NOT to do and not having enough chapters on what TO do. It's not a book that says, "if child is doing X, then say Y in this tone of voice." But the concluding 3 chapters suggest alternatives to threats and punishments and rewards that make you think and reflect. I found this enormously helpful.

The next book I read was "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles" by Kurcinka. This has more practical solutions to everyday problems. Definitely give it a try.

Other posters mentioned the "How to Talk..." book. Also a good one! Really, really love this book!

I do a lot of talking with my kids. I listen a lot, I reason, offer suggestions, and try to come to compromises. I'm firm on the things that need to be. Other times if my 4 yo comes up with a reasonable solution to a problem then I'll change my "no" to "yes." That seems respectful and affirms their self-worth and encourages autonomy and future motivation. I think "working with" stategies (reasoning) are far better than "doing to" stategies (threats, punishment). But, you know, I'm not perfect so there are times I still threaten with "if-then" statements, but it's a very, very last resort. There is a way to parent without threats and punishments. It's harder, yes. It takes longer to reason, yes. But if you think long-term about character development and values it's well-worth it.

Good luck on your parenting journey!

I would suggest checking out Becky Bailey's Conscious Discipline website. Her book, Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline is really helping us with our 4 year old daughter. We're actually doing a parenting workshop/class and we are using the book in class. We were having some behavioral problems and realized that we want our daughter to cooperate because she wants to cooperate, not because she's afraid of being yelling at, having something taken away, going into time out, or getting a swat on the bottom. Just remember that discipline is about teaching your children, not punishing them.

Well, depending on the situation that's fine. I tell her that if she does X she will lose Y all the time. BUT my difficulty is in avoiding the escalation that can go along with this. It helps to stop and say, don't you want Y? I know you really like Y. Isn't it worth it to just get dressed? Also, I've found that taking away computer time, for example, is more effective if you take it away 5 or 10 minutes at a time instead of all at once. You can try this.
I've also started to revisit the time-outs, which I hadn't used much in a while. It also works to break things down into smaller requests. Instead of "go get dressed" it's "if you bring me your clothes I will help you get dressed." Because my daughter is very verbal and speaks very well, it's very easy for me to underestimate where she really is emotionally and to expect more of her than is truly age appropriate.
Ultimately though it's just slowing down enough to realize that "if you do X you lose Y" is really the same as "if you do Z get Y" or "if you don't do X you get Y." You can choose the positive phrasing of the exact same thing.

I have respectful children who are self motivated. I never need to threaten or yell. Early discipline was key.

Read this site, and if it's in alignment with your beliefs, get the great book.
www.backtobasicsdiscipline.com

Parenting with Love and Logic. It's awesome and helps you come up with natural consequences for your kids actions. It's very much like real life. And it always puts the ball in their court. They get to choose what the outcome will be. I highly recommend this book to everyone.

How wonderful that you are still in touch with your ideal dream of parenting. And that you have the clarity to want to act on that. A courageous and loving move!

For me, the best parenting book I've ever read is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. This is a workshop-between-covers, and teaches parents how to reconnect with their children, support a mutually-respectful relationship, and gives many real-life examples of how parents can help the child address all sorts of problems herself.

We don't usually think about young children in these terms, but they can be remarkably creative problem solvers. Plus, kids are more invested in solutions they think of themselves, and are more likely to work at making them a success.

I've used this approach with my grandson since he was 2.5 years old (he's now 5), and am continually impressed by how much maturity it calls forth. He's becoming very well prepared to handle all sorts of life situations responsibly, because his sense of right and wrong is strengthened each time he chooses positive behavior for his own well-being. Other parents to whom I've recommended this book also get results that amaze them. I hope you'll give it a try; I think both you and your daughters will love it.

If you think about it, you've answered your own question.
"Threats" don't work.
Kids are smart.
If you don't follow through, they know that your words are pretty hollow.
That's why "threatening" doesn't work.
Are you upset because you find yourself "threatening" because it seems mean or because you don't follow through?
All you have to do is say "I expect X and if you choose not to do it, then Y is going to be the result."
Then, you follow through with it. You don't go back on your word.
They are 4. What kind of mature logic are you looking for?
No offense, I promise.
They need to know you mean business and you might have to take some things away that you wish you wouldn't have to because if they would just listen it wouldn't be an issue.
However, you have to know that any kid is going to test and push and see how far the boundaries really reach.
It's invevitable.
So....as parents....we have to let them know the boundaries and the rules. If they choose to break them, fine. But there is a consequence to it.
If there were no consequences in life, why would ANYONE bother to do anything they are supposed to do?
I think you just need to be consistant.
You likely have some pretty smart kids on your hands.
You need to outsmart them.

Again, no offense intended.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Best wishes.

We have house rules and consequences.
The kids helped us make up the rules years ago and they have a Sibling Constitution that they made up as well. The constitution hangs between their rooms and is made up of 10 simple rules including respecting each other's privacy, not borrowing without asking, being kind, not bickering, etc.
Time out worked well for us.
We also found each child's currency. My oldest loved TV and video games. If he misbehaved, I took his TV away. For him, that was worse than removing his left kidney. My daughter didn't care about TV, so that didn't work for her. BUT - We had TV tickets that the kids could use or save - 4 per day. If they used all 4, that was it. If they turned them in at the end of the day, they could get 25 cents per ticket. She was into money. So if she misbehaved, I took her ticket and in essence her cash. :-)
Figure out their currency. Use it.
Be consistent. Don't let them get away with anything. Be firm. Be loving.
Parenting is long and hard. Some days you really wonder... Trust me, all the heartache and gnashing of teeth is worth it in the end.
LBC

I like "Parenting the strong-willed child" by Rex Forehand and Nicholas Long. It is a 5 week program that helps you change your behavior which in turn changes your child's behavior. It only involves 5 steps (one for each week). The premise being that it takes about a week for us to truly learn and integrate each new step. The book is for 2-6 year olds but I think the steps we learn are useful for older children as well.

Try to offer choices. It works well with our 3 year old to give her two or three choices, tell her she has 2 minutes to decide or mommy will choose. Natural consequnces are not a threat. An example would be: You can take a bath now and have time to play in the tub, or you can take a bath in 30 minutes but you will have to wash and get out. Be sure that the choices you offer are ones you would be OK with. Be sure to follow through with conseqences. Look for information on Love and Logic. A lot of times community Ed will have classes. It talks a lot about offering choices and natural consequences but that is just part of that "parenting style".

What constitutes appropriate discipline? When should you administer discipline? While there is no one right answer to fit every family and every circumstance, there are some general guidelines that are recommended.

First, let’s cover why a parent disciplines his/her child. The immediate purposes of discipline are usually twofold: to help a child learn what behaviors are ok and what behaviors are not ok, and also to punish a child for exhibiting behaviors that are not ok (”misbehaving”). The ultimate purpose of discipline is to ensure that the child does not repeat the misbehavior. This may be to ensure the child’s safety, to bring the child in line with societal expectations, or for any number of other reasons.

With that in mind, what constitutes appropriate discipline depends on the age and mindset of the child, the culture in which the child is being raised, and the gravity of the behavioral violation at issue. For example, if a two-year-old child has loudly voiced her displeasure in the middle of a nice restaurant, her parent may remove her to a more private setting (for example, her parent’s car) where she can receive a two minute time-out, be told how to express more appropriately what she is feeling, use that information (hopefully) to express her feelings according to the proscribed boundaries, and experience the love and patience of her parent without simultaneously receiving validation from her parent about her misbehavior. If, however, the child is eight years old and the errant behavior is playing in the middle of a busy street despite repeated parental instruction to the contrary, her parent may remove her from the street and take her to a more private setting (for example, her room) where she can receive an eight minute time-out, be reminded of the dangers of playing in the middle of a busy street, be provided options for alternate locations for play, be grounded for one full week, and experience the love and patience of her parent without simultaneously receiving validation from her parent about her misbehavior. During the week of grounding, the parent may take the child to a local emergency room’s lobby where the child can observe people coming in with major injuries so that the child will see how serious and painful accidents can be. Note that the length of the time-out is proportionate to the child’s age. (Typically, the length of the time-out is one minute for each year of the child’s life. So, a four-year-old will experience a four minute time-out and a nine-year-old will experience a nine minute time out.) Punishments should be age-appropriate. Punishments should also be appropriate for the mindset of the child. One child may be very emotive while another is very logical. A parent needs to select punishments that work for the unique nature of the child. Punishments should be culturally appropriate. For example, in our culture, physical punishment is typically considered inappropriate at this time. Finally, punishment should be proportionate to the misbehavior: stronger punishment should be reserved for recurrent or serious misbehaviors.

Once the method of discipline is chosen, timing should be determined. Ideally, discipline is administered immediately following the misbehavior. If there is a delay, the child may lose the connection between the misbehavior and the punishment. This is true even when the parent explains the connection. Typically, acceptable delay occurs only in taking a child to a private location. When a delay is necessary, a parent should quietly state to the child, at the time of the misbehavior, that discipline will follow at a more appropriate place and time. A child should not be disciplined in front of others.

If the ultimate purpose is kept in mind when selecting discipline for a child, a parent will usually fulfill that purpose eventually (although the purpose may not be achieved in the parent’s ideal timeline). The ultimate purpose of discipline is to ensure that the child does not repeat the misbehavior.

I would suggest Parenting with Love & Logic ~ loveandlogic.com

If you find yourself making threats to get results, most likely your children aren't responding because they don't believe you'll follow through. Try a subtle shift to "Please do X or -consequence-". Then give a count of 3 and follow through on the consequence if X hasn't been started/done. The consequence should be immediate, like time-out or ending an activity and you should see that X is still dine afterwards. Instead of leading with a threat, lead with a request and teach that your requests aren't allowed to be said no to or ignored without immediate consequence. Good luck!

How to Behave so That Your Child Will Too by Sal Savere. Love and Logic by Foster and Kline. How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk by

I've found that it helps for me to think before I speak and find a way to word things in a positive way. Instead of saying "you won't be able to do X if you don't do Y, " I say, "when you finish X you can do Y." Then remain calm and refuse Y until X is done.

For me the hard part is loosing patience and getting upset because doing X seems so simple to me. I have to remember that these are just little kids without the ability to understand cause and effect. They need the repeated experience of success to be able to appreciate the ability to do Y. This means that I help them do X. as well as Y; to make it a continuous action.

If you could give some examples of when you're having difficulty we might be able to make suggestions on how to do it differently.

Check out Jim Fay's Love and Logic books. They are wonderful and grow with the children into adulthood because he gives sound advice that isn't gimmicky, but can be fun. They also have parent workshops you can attend to learn how to apply the strategies. They teach you how to get away from the power struggles with kids that lead to threatening them. Really great stuff. I have used it as a teacher and parent. I have recommended it to people on this website a million times. Check out www.loveandlogic.com or just google Love and logic or Jim Fay. A ton of information will come up about it. Good luck!
A.

There's nothing inherently wrong with telling the child what the consequences of her actions will be. It sounds to me like your children are then not behaving, which is leading to the "unproductive" atmosphere you describe. It's pretty simple... just follow up what you say with what you do! If you say, "If you don't pick up your toys, we will not go to the park," then you'd better be prepared not to go to the park when the toys don't get picked up. Never, ever give a consequence that you're not 100% prepared to follow up.

My suggestions would simply be these:
1) the consequence should match the action. If the toys don't get picked up, they will be taken away and donated, for instance. (For the record, I've had to do this exactly one time, and one time only.)
2) the consequence should be memorable, and therefore persuasive (see above)
3) don't make too many rules. Pick a few, and add more as they get older. First, start with the easy stuff (Put away your toys, and don't hit your sister. Or whatever.)

My favorite parenting book is John Rosemond's "Parent Power!" - he's just so common-sense and logical, and best of all, his suggestions work. ;)