I Need Advice on How to Handle a Delicate Situation with a Friend

She'll lose you as a friend. If they are indeed "monsters" as they sound to be, then she needs to be told in no uncertain terms that they lack discipline. Sorry but sometimes they need to hear it from someone they are friends with. If she gets mad at you, then so be it. She'll need to grow up eventually, her kids will be going to school soon and they won't tolerate that kind of behavior there either.

Working F/T with 3 kids under 5 and a husband that does not help most be stressful for her. No excuse, but a factor anyway. However, she seems to blame everyone else for her kids behavior.

No one likes for there kids to be in trouble at school, but these poor kids will have no friends, and she will never find a babysitter if she does not take care of it now.

Maybe if you have a time to speak with her w/o the kids around when she can relax you can talk about some discipline tactics that work for you.

Good luck.

Good firends like you can be far between. I bet your friend is very grateful to have you in her life.

I would suggest waiting to tell your friend about your (and others) observation about her kids until she brings the subject up. Then you know she will be ready to really hear what you are saying. It may be nagging at you until then. Just keep it inside and smile because this is the sort of thing good friends do for each other. We wait until our friends are ready.

You wrote that your friend is working, has no help and has a 5, 4 and 3 year old. She does need a break and she is crying out for help. But you also need to help in ways that work for you and your family too. It makes me think about how someone who is drowning can unintentionally endanger the person trying to save them. (THis is an overly dramatic metaphor for this situation but gives a good picture.)

Offer your friend helps in ways that work for you and your family. Suggest that she look to get to sitters instead of one. They could be a little bit younger and would be able to handle kids better. Maybe you can watch the kids at her house (maybe even after they are in bed:>); plan on having specific activities instead of free play and that will help keep them in control; maybe only offer to watch them for an hour or two; maybe it would be a relief for her just to watch one/two kids at a time; maybe you can p/u kids after daycare one time and she could take the long way coming home from work. All of these things are nice extras you can do as a friend but you are not obligated. If you can't do, just keep them in mind for a time that works better for you.

If there are times when you get together with this friend and her children, plan a little more. Try to limit your time to the length of time both sets of kids can be positively engaged or plan on having playdates where you moms are actively involved in their play. THis would also give your friend the opportunity to observe and learn from how you approach for different disciplining issues.

Hope this helps and best wishes to you and your friend.

Yikes! What a difficult situation you are in! I have a couple of ideas for you to consider. First off, I try to make it a rule never to judge or comment on other families' parenting styles. Even when they clearly need help, from my perspective.

Second, I definitely would not put up with that kind of behavior in your home. When kids come over, they need to follow the "house" rules. Period. I think most all parents would agree that this is an appropriate rule.

It's nice that you want to help your friend, but your own family should be your first priority. I think that the next time your friend wanted to get together with all the kids, I'd just make a comment, kind of light-heartedly, that her kids are a little to nuts for your family. And leave it at that.

You don't want your kids to pick up on the bad behavior and think that it's okay. Plus, maybe she'll get the subtle hint.

Other than that, I would leave her to her own devices. It sounds like she's very sensitive and anything you add might ruin the friendship. Your friendship might just have to be put on hold for a few years until the children are older.

Wow that is tough.
I'm sure that with your friend working full-time with what might as well be an absentee husband/father, her free time is spent cooking cleaning and doing laundry which leaves not much time left for discipline tactics.
While I can't imagine a mom who wouldn't see that their children are difficult, it sounds like you found one. I know when my children are being difficult and I am embarrassed about it. Sounds like it doesn't bother your friend one bit.
It sounds like your friend does not want to hear from anyone about her kids behavior. She could be taking it as a personal attack, or she could just be completely in never never land. But I wouldn't go that route if you wanted to maintain the friendship.
I have a few creative suggestions that may help her if she can read between the lines.
1) Complain to her about an imaginary playdate you had over. (may not work if you two are close enough where she knows all of your friends/relatives, etc.). But anyway, say that your children were picking up on so and so's awful behavior and that you are going to start making house rules when playdates come over because of it and ask everyone to leave if they can't follow. This will set her up for the house rules when she comes over. Or wait for my #2 suggestion before you try this out on her kids.
2) Babysitting -- there is no reason for you to be her permanent free babysitter. You can suggest she put an ad up on sittercity.com to find someone if you are your husband aren't comfortable with it. However, I think watching her kids would be your best bet for changing the situation. While you may be uncomfortable disciplining her children while she is around, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from telling her kids about your house rules and enforcing them while you are watching her kids for their evening out. Sometimes it is easier to get through to the children rather than the adult. After they are dropped off, you sit everyone on the coach and go over the huge chart that you are going to write up with your house rules. Verbal and written rules make them sink in more than just verbal rules. Tell them the consequences for not following the rules and follow through - time out, no fun activity that you have planned, whatever. If your friend isn't interested in parenting her children and you want to maintain the friendship, maybe it's time you stepped in on your time. The bonus to this is that you should be able to reciprocate and drop your children off at their house for your own night out. At the very least hopefully her kids will learn that they have to behave at your house even if it doesn't help them at home and daycare.
3) Last suggestion is that you may want to say something like I bought this great book on parenting tips (like 1 2 3 magic -- and go ahead, spend the $10 or whatever it is and buy the book). Then say it helped me tremendously with my Bobby and now he is listening to me much better. Do you want to borrow it? I think if you are able to show empathy for her and maybe make her think that she isn't the only one with parenting issues - even if you have none - that maybe hopefully she will take the bait and read the book and try it's tricks. A lot of parents just don't know where to begin.
Hope this helps!

Hi M.,

This is definitely not an easy situation. She is obviously unwilling to see that her children are unruly. But if you want to keep the friendship, I wouldn't say anything (unless one of her kids hurts your kids in some way). She's already been told by her relatives that her kids are out of control, if that isn't enough to get her to do something about it, then what is? If you're willing to put up with their bad behavior, she is very lucky to have a friend like you. I gave up a 12 year friendship because my friend's daughter who is a year older than my daughter was mean-spirited and was constantly doing subtle things to trick or provoke my daughter into doing something that she knew would get her in trouble, then took pleasure in seeing her cry. I found it quite disturbing that a 4 year-old could be that way. I could see that this was going to be an on-going situation so I tried to talk to my friend about it, but she was completely incensed and cut off all communication with me. I knew saying something would probably cause that reaction, but I had to make the choice between what was best for my child, or keeping that friendship. I miss my friend in some ways, but after 3 years, I am very glad I made that choice. My daughter is much better off without a "friend" like that.

I have a long time friend that had two girls that were out of control. At one point her three year old hit me in the face and she didn't do a thing about it. Well I stopped going over to visit. I didn't invite her over and after awhile her and her husband noticed. They asked why and I was honest, but kind. I told her that I understood that parenting we difficult and that kids are all different, but her children were out of control and I just couldn't be around them when I saw her children running all over her and her husband. I told her that I loved her and we had been friends for a long time and I wasn't going to tell her how to raise her children but I didn't have to be a witness to her kids growing up to be such tyrants.

Honestly, I would very kindly sit her down one evening when her kids are asleep and explain that you love her and you cherish your friendship, but after awhile she has to realize that all the notes home, the comments from her own family, and the avoidance by all around her is for a reason. And if she will be honest with herself she will realize that her kids are out of control. Tell her that you know of some good resources for learning how to discipline children and then give her a list...tell her no one is trying to be mean to her, but just honest.

Tell her you can understand how it could be overwhelming, but she needs to be honest with herself and start now to get her children under control or it will be a total mess before she knows it.

Then leave her to decide what she will do with the information you gave her.

You can't be friends with someone that is seriously neglecting their kids like that....because when parents don't discipline their children, they are neglecting them. Maybe it's because they are too tired....but it is neglect. Children need discipline. They need rules to live by so they know how to follow them as adults. They need boundaries to understand how to stay within them as adults. They need consequences to prepare them for consequences as adults. They need to accept responsibility for their actions so they know how to do it as adults.

Children that don't have rules, that don't suffer consequences, that have no boundaries become criminals as adults. They point the finger at others when things go wrong in their lives. They whine and cry at every misfortune. They don't know how to persevere. They don't know how to control their impulses. They end up in debt. They end up taking what they can't afford. And the list goes on. Discipline is very, very, very important to a child's development and growth.

I have had friends with children that were wild and spoiled and what happened over the years, one way or another, is that we became less friendly and spent less and less time together. It was (and is) sad sometimes to lose a friend this way. But I couldn't stand to be around the wild kids and I didn't like them influencing my kids. Right now it's jumping on furniture and breaking toys but as they get older the stakes will grow. These are the kids skipping school, smoking at the beach at night, running around etc etc. So, I hate to be a downer, but...I wouldn't sweat this too much either way. If you tell her the truth chances are she won't hear you and she'll be pissed. If you take the natural course, eventually you'll probably reach the same result. The only thing I wouldn't do is sacrifice your sanilty and your kids' well-being just to maintain this friendship. I know this sounds harsh but this scenario is common and now I've seen it play through from preschool to high school. You need to start developing friendships with a smaller set of people now: people whose kids and parenting styles are consistent with yours. Just be glad this woman is not in your family......then you couldn't walk away!

First I want to say that if you don't feel comfortable watching them, then don't. If you have them at your house, telling them "my house, my rules" is not going to work if they've not been taught respect at home. It will go in one ear and out the other. Also, you have your own children to think about. Children are easily influenced and you may not want them exposed to that type of behavior. As far as what you should say to her, that is a difficult situation. If she doesn't listen to the teachers or her family, she probably won't listen to you either. And honestly, that is probably why her children act they way they do, because she treats them like they do no wrong. They probably get away with everything. So I don't think a sit down heart-to-heart on the situation is going to help. But when she complains to you about her family or the school, you could subtly bring something up. Like listen to her complaint and then ask her how she punished her child for what they did wrong.

I wish you the best of luck. This is a very difficult situation to be in, for you and your friend.

I think people reap what they sow, and your friend has not helped her children become the type of kids others want to have around and she is feeling the results of her actions. Her story of not having any grandparents or not having any time to herself is NOT an excuse. I know children of single working moms who are very well-behaved.

If she had very well-behaved children perhaps you or others would be willing to do babysitting trading or even her brother and sister would be more likely to offer help.

She is in this position because SHE put herself there.

I have found that when you offer criticism or unsolicited advice it NEVER seems to have any type of good effect, and if anything hurts a relationship. Unless she comes to you and asks what you think, I'd keep quiet. When she vents to you, I'd just acknowledge what she says (maybe with a "wow, I can see you're really frustrated) and change the subject. I'm sure you would not appreciate if you were venting to a friend and they said "oh, but it's YOUR fault your boss was mean."

It is not your job to solve her mistakes. If you do not want her kids over, I would not have them over. Personally I would not offer to watch them either.

Something will happen to make her see. And when she does, you can be there with all the good advice you saved up. As friends we WANT to catch our friends before they fall, but in the end we have to let them fall and help them pick up the pieces in the end. It's the only way we humans seem to learn!

Sounds like a tough situation but a good friend would tell her like it is. Obviously, these kids are starved for attention from their parents. Kids only want attention and if they can't get the good attention they will take the bad just to get some. right? Your friend feels guilty that she works full time and that her husband doesn't participate, so she probably doesn't discipline enough or in the right time frame and makes the problem worse. Now she has dragged you into it knowingly or not by making your feel guilty that her situation sucks. Which you shouldn't because you didn't force her to have three kids with someone who may or may not want them. It will be hard to tell this to her but she needs to hear it. She may be mad at you and yell, cry , etc. but if she is truly your friend she will listen to you and remain your friend because it sounds like you are the only logical and an all out supporter of her. Or you may lose the friendship which at this point is strained but also enabling if you choose to not tell her like it is and that the only thing that might help is to spend more quality time with these children now before they turn into teenage dangerous monsters who hate her or unleash their terror on society. good luck! be strong!

Hi M....welcome to Mamasource. :)

I agree with Carolyn, yikes.

I have a question...where the heck is your friend when her kids are doing these things?? Does she SEE her kids push, disobey, tackle? If so, does she do anything?

It's sooooo hard with friends and their kids/parenting styles. Everyone is different. We have a group of 5 of us girls that hang out and we are all unique in our raising of kids.

Personally, if my children were THIS difficult, I'd want to know about it. But, maybe I'm in the minority. I ask at daycare if there are any issues (we had one "incident report" in the 3 + years we've been there). When my mom or sister's babysit I ask them how they were...and I tell them I want the truth. I'm soooo greatful for the family/help we get, I don't want misbehavior to be an issue.

BUT, it doesn't sound like your friend will want to hear it. She's heard it from people that are closer to her (sister, brother, SIL) and even from people at daycare who see her kids everyday. I think that if you try to talk to her, she will get angry with you and it may damage your friendship.

Like Carolyn said, just set firm rules in YOUR home and when it comes to your kids. If one of her kids is aggressive to yours, by all means step-in. You need to protect them. If they break a toy at your house, bring it up to your friend (if you see them do it) and show her. I'm not sure how often you see them, but maybe you can point out situations as they happen. If it happens enough, she will either get the hint or she will take offense and limit her visits with you - which may be a good idea until her kids grow out of it.

Good luck and keep us posted on what happens/what you do.

T.

EDITED TO ADD: What about this? The next time she tells you that her sister, brother or SIL say something perhaps you can encourage her to talk to them more about it. "Kathy, you've mentioned a few times that they have said things to you. I know if my sister/brother said something like that, I'd want to know why. Maybe you should sit down with her/him and see what's going on." Just a thought.

Hi M.,
I see your delicate situation is actually a very serious one. I'm not an expert or a therapist of any kind. I really though think that you need to ask your friend to stop and observe, try to really look at her situation, talk about what she doesn't like how she may feel out of control, why she may be stressed out and ask her to identify where her root relys on. In my opinion if she pin points it on her kids, her family or the fact that her parents and inlaws are gone, that she's not looking at herself in the situation. She may need some help to rap her mind around how to do it herself, maybe she thinks she's doing a great job, or the best she can do. But finding a way to say to her with out pointing out her flaws or her children flaws. Maybe being sympathetic? I'm sure you have been, some people need it a little more then others to get through some of their own troubles.
Maybe cut a deal with her, saying as long as you can take the tough criticism and be more proactive in the way she disciplines her children to behave then you wouldn't mind taking them for a couple of hours so she can have alone time with her husband. Maybe if she is still not responding to you and still fights you on the situation, then she may be hitting her rock bottom. I just can't see how a person will refuse help on making her life easier or better in the long run by eliminating some of her stresses. Maybe suggest calling Nanny 911? Personally I wouldn't want to go on the show for the embarrasment of myself, but if it's going to help better my family environment then I would do it. Just some ideas, I really hope that this helps. Best of luck to you, it's hard being that friend, I've been there before. Just remember not to allow this situation to consume you. Ok, take care!

What about inviting her to attend a Parent Training with you? Maybe listing to a professional seminar will open her eyes and help her lay down the law a little better with her children. It sounds like the kids are running the house, not her! Our local park district has offered several trainings on raising children, getting them to listen, etc.... I've also been to a few trainings through Parent University. Good luck.

I went through a rough situation with a friend once and although we still talk and at quite friendly, we do not spend the time together like we used to. But as much as it hurt me to lose a friend, the situation I was in with her was hurting me even more. Based on what you have written, due to the problems with her kids you have a limited friendship with her right now anyway because such a huge part of her life is kinda off limits for discussion. And if your husband is unwilling to let you watch her kids, then I'd guess you may have disagreements about you & your friend being together often due to her kids being around your kids. So the way I see it, no matter whether you say something and risk her being mad or don't say something and slowly grow apart - the friendship is not going to get any better. My suggestion is to sit down one-on-one with your friend and tell her that you love her, value her friendship, and think it would be so wonderful if you were able to have a close relationship with her kids. After making it clear that you have thought things through well, then let her know what you have heard from other people concerning her kids and her attitude about those issues. Don't get intentionally mean, but highlight a few issues and say that during your time with them you have noticed the same things. Give her ideas and support on what changes might be able to be made to help them and changes that maybe she needs to make. Then let her know that you would love to help her make the needed changes and you'll be there every step of the way if she wants you, but if things continue the way they are and her kids (and her attitude about them) continues, then you are very sorry and sad that you will have step back from being such close friends. Sounds hard, sounds mean, I know. But you also have to look at your family and know that the best for them is what is most important. Good luck.

I have not read any of your post's responses yet so here's my two cents. NO ..... don't babysit! If you really want to remain friends - don't do it. Unless it is an emergency, if her children are as ill-behaved as you say and she is so blinded by the fact that they are that ill-behaved then, I wouldn't babysit. She probably does know how difficult they are - she just sees it as normal (and it's not!!!!!)

I've been in a situation similar to this, but the exception is my good friend knows that her child is challenging (he has some social developmental issues). At one point, she confronted me because she thought I was ignoring her - my son no longer wanted to play with her child because I could see that he was becoming increasingly mean to him) . I didn't want to lose her friendship either, yet, it had to be said. I told her that I valued her friendship and would love to continue ours but, unfortunately, my children pick their own friends and don't have the same desire to have a strong friendship at this point in their lives, with hers. It was just a fact - and was such a hard conversation to have. Anyone less than my friend may have run off - she was grateful to hear that just because our kids weren't friends didn't mean that we didn't have to be. She truly is one of my dearest friends and our kids are pleasant to each other. This conversation took place 6 years ago. Our daughters, now, hang out. From time to time, I pick her son up from school. Every now and then, our boys will cross paths.

I got lucky because my friend was receptive to what I was saying. Both of our concerns were: Once we became moms were we destined to ONLY be friends with the parents of our children??? No, it doesn't have to be that way. Whether you will have the same fortune or not, depends on how receptive your friend will be. If your friendship can jump over this hurdle successfully, you will have your answer. If this doesn't work out - there will be another great friend lurking out there - you just have to be receptive to it.

Good luck.

It sounds like Karen D down there might have some "monster" children of her own. Defensive much?
Anyways, having 3 young children and working full time is NOT an excuse for having poorly behaved, spoiled children. Not only is that a poor excuse, it's an insult to working mothers who do take the time to parent their children. All the other ladies had great advice for you. I wouldn't just straight out have this conversation with her because she's just going to get offended and not take it in. We have a relative who is like this and her son (7) is a terror. Is it the child's fault? No, but it's the truth; when you don't take the time to parent and discipline your children, people don't want to be around them. She hears people (family, school, etc) tell her about her children's behavior and ignores it, then wonders why noone will watch them. So, until she gets it, she will have to hire babysitters or not go out.
It's sad that this is your friend, but until she sees the light the best suggestion I see is to go out without her kids. Good luck!

Hi M.,
I understand your exact dilemma. I too have a friend that had (to put it mildly) unruly children. No one and I mean NO ONE wanted to watch her kids. Her mother in law would make up excuses so she didn't have to watch her grand kids. One day after a particular rowdy visit, I finally had to say something. My house was a disaster and found broken toys, so I called her on the phone to ask which one of the kids broke it. She got a little defensive with me and said how did I know that her kids broke it. She always stuck up for kids, good or bad. I said to her, I love you as a friend and love the time that we can spend together. But I am going to have to start seeing you, without your children. I don't like things being broke in my house and my children are uneasy when your children come over. If you need some help trying to get your kids to listen, I will help you in anyway I can, but other wise, maybe you and I can meet for lunch without your kids once every couple of weeks. I thought I had lost her friendship, and I was willing to take that risk. But she came around and when she didn't have anyone to talk to. I also made it clear to her and her children, that it is my house and my rules. Now when they come here, they are pretty well behaved and they know that I mean business. I am happy to watch her children for a few hours for her now and they listen great to me. But of course I am not mom either.. I hope that this helps you out some. Have a Great Day!! T.

If it were me, when she starts talking about her children's behavior, I would politely say, I would rather not talk about it. If she keeps prying, I again would tell her you don't want to talk about it because she get offended if there is any type of input about the situation. If it still continues, then I would tell her, if you want to talk about this, then you have to be open to what other people have to say and not be so offended. Constructive criticism, given in a good way is not meant to hurt, only help. I would wait until she brings it up.

M.,
Now matter what you say she will be offended. It sounds like she does not see her childrens behavior as being a problem. I have been there with a friend and finally I decided that my children and I had enough so while they were at my house (even with mom) they had to follow the same rules as my children and told them so. I had the kids sit at the kitchen table (mom there too) and told then that what behavior was accepatble. I told them while at my house they wewre expected to follow the same rules as my kids and told them all the rules and what the consequences were if they did not follow.
Well my friend was very put off by this and as much as I liked her I had to be honest with her and tell her my side of the stress factor with her childrens behavior problem. Also how it was unfair to my kids to have to follow our house rules while her children did not.
She eventully came around and admitted her children were stressing her out also with their behavior and that she was to blame becasue she felt taht working full time she did not want to have to deal with problems so she let the kids do what ever they wanted..

Good luck and br prepared for her to be angry but you do need to take a stand and tell her and her children that they need to follow the rules of your house when they are visiting,

I would approach this subject very delicately, but if you are a true friend to her, then i would do it.

She needs to know that this is a big problem and reason that her own sister has trouble watching the children.

I would just sympathize with her about how hard she works at her day job, how hard it is to do it ALL with a lazy husband, and how hard it is to raise three kids. THEN you can say something about how her children seem affected by the stress...and discuss some ideas how she can combat this situation.

Maybe going out for a drink or coffee after the kids are in bed at night? Maybe taking sunday afternoon to go to the library or a bookstore and relax ALONE for an hour?

I feel for you...bad situation to be in. just be honest but also be ready to possibly lose a friend....

Hi M.,
Sounds like your friend has the same problem like I did. My kids were the same way...jumping on furniture, hitting each other and other kids in daycare..etc. My first question is...Does she truely discipline them or just lets her kids get out of control? I ask this because I truely tried to disipline my kids, but they never seemed to listen. I took my kids to the doctor to have them check to see if they have ADD or ADHD. For the longest time, I was in denile how my kids were acting. I finally broke down because both kids were falling behind in school, and I can tell how frustrating they were getting. They truely wanted to learn but the attention problems seemed to get in their way. Now they are like different children. They both like school, have more friends, listening better, and the house is more enjoyable because it's quieter. So my advice is have her see the children's doctor. As they get older..it will get worse; and if problems at daycare persists, she will be finding a new daycare soon. As for babysitting, it's not fair for her to expect you to babysit when the kids are out of control. If the kids are truely ADD or ADHD, it's very tiring especially if they are not your children.

I've been in a similar circumstance myself and I can say it pays to be honest and helpful. I have a friend with three children, who realizes they are out of control and definitely little devils at times. I think that if this is your friends' circumstance, maybe you could help her realize that she may be overwhelmed with the situation. I know with my friend, she just needed a helping hand. I have been able to help her discipline her kids-she is open to this and many people aren't-when I'm over at her house or when they are at my house. I've also been honest with her about how I see their behaviour affect her. I have gone over to her house several nights to help her get a routine established for dinner/bed/bath time (her husband travels). I think much of my friend's success is realizing the behaviour of her children and the willingness to accept help from a friend that only wishes her the best. Your friend does not sound that open. Maybe you could start out by making clear the boundries of acceptable behaviour-in the presence of their mother-at your house. Something like, we don't run in the house, or could you please pick this up before you go, or hands are for playing not for hitting. Especially if they do something to one of your kids, I think you have every right to say something to the heathen-like behavior. IT's a tricky situation, but it will probably work out for the best.

First, just from your first paragraph, your friend sounds totally frazzled. She may be so busy she is not truly listening to what others are saying and taking criticism as saying she is a bad parent. Especially if her husband is not getting on board with the kids and the house and everything else. It is very important to approach her without saying her kids are out of control. If possible, take some time with her away form the kids. Let her know how everyone seems to feel but do NOT use negative terms. No "bad", "unruly" or any other words that sounds like she has not control. Even if she doesn't, which is how it sounds, she is not going to hear it. My kids have had what I considered out of control days-though not destructive. I work full time and my husband works full time evening hours so I know how hard it can be to manage everything and want to get away. I would step in now before things really blow up and it gets harder to change the kids. If the kids are at your house, you are in charge. If she does not step up, then you or whomever is there should take control. Maybe she will come around when she truly sees what is going on.

My suggestion, don't enable her by sitting for her. She sounds like she needs to take the bull by the horns and give much needed attention to her children and a good conversation with the lazy husband. Your inaction will speak louder than words. If she takes action on her own, reward her with a babysitting, if not, just sympathize with her. If she asks for you to sit, let her know that you have your own challenges. She can pay for a sitter for them to destroy her own house.

M., Yes, this is a difficult situation. Your friend ( is overly sensitive to criticism, constructive or not. Her ego simply cannot handle it. There is much she needs to know besides that her children are ill-behaved. She needs to know that everyone has personality issues. She needs to know that she will be a better person when she learns how to take criticism and step by step move forward to address the issues involved. She needs to know that her children are going to have their childhood diminished by their behavior and as their mother that should be her main concern. She needs to know how to discipline her children, which involves finding a realistic program for parenting. She needs to have a group to support her through the process of changing her parenting style. She'll need help coping with her husband who may not support her efforts, and may even sabotage them. If this sounds like a daunting list, it is. Simply telling her that her children misbehave more than most children in her class will be like shoving her into a swirling black pool unless you are prepared to invest in helping with some of these other things. Like she could use counseling, can you recommend one or two to her? Can you locate a parenting class for her? Can you talk to her siblings and get their co-operation? Can you tell her about how people learn to overcome, step by step, with a story of your own or a book on it? The problem is not just that she is blind to her children's misbehavior, they act as they do because she is clueless about how to raise them. When will people realize that it is not enough to just tell someone something they need to know, they also need help processing it.

M.,

wow! Sounds like your friend will not listen to you, & will take offense. She will need to hire sitters for her children for her nights out. sounds like she not ready to hear negative things about her children. I would back away from here. keep your contact to phone calls, e-mails. maybe when the weather nice get with and her children at a public park , where they can run about. maybe they wont fight so much. Dont feel bad about not watching her children. Thats not your job. I could see for a true emergency .. helping out. and hopefully your husband would be nderstanding.
good luck! sounds to me your friend is not ready to hear anything! and maybe never will! yes, there's ppl out there like that!

take care,
D. Y

Hi M.!

I think your friend is my sister! I just finished putting up the room barriers in my house to save my house from my sisters monster!! LOL She is coming over this afternoon!

I am curious to see the responses to this b/c I am dealing with it myself. My sis just has one child, and I am starting to not like the both of them b/c of her child's behavior and my sister's lack of response to it!

What I have learned is that my niece does understand rules and how to play nice. She is in daycare and in school and follows most of the rules there. She just understands that it is not enforced at home, so why should she bother?. My sister always finds an excuse for her. No matter how well the rules are taught, explained, or enforced elsewhere, if there isn't consequences for breaking rules at home.....YOU are wasting your time (You have no authority while school, etc does).

I learned when she has to come over: we limit the play areas, supervise the play area, limit the toys, and then I firlmy review the rules (and scenerios) with my kids so that they are prepared.

I kinda think this will be the last visit...last time she came my sis started giving me the 'you are so mean to your kids' look as I was using 1-2-3 Magic on them (works wonderfully by the way!!)

My sister is the kind of person who sees what she wants to see. She disciplines her child by talking to her (as she just ignored my rule for the 3rd time) and explaining (or excusing) my niece's behavior and then my niece smiles at you as if she is saying, "See?" as she does what she was just asked not to. Well this is her style and it is up to her if she thinks it is working or not. I know what works for me and my kids or at least I hope so. I know my kids have crooked Halos too!

On occassion I have said to my sis, when it has been an issue brought to her attention several times, "Do you think any part of that could be true?" and when she responds "NO, not my #####" I just kindly say in a stuper, "Hmm, I wonder why ALL of the teachers think that?" and kind of help her separate her angel from the behavior the professionals are talking about. I have had MINIMAL progess with this, but usually she thinks she is right. And also, being a relative I have to see them more, otherwise I don't think I would see much of my sis until her kid was older (and no longer wanted to come over with her mom).

I would not watch your friends kids, I think your friend has a lot of denial about her life situation (husband, kids) and her kids are acting out to help her break through and deal with her life!!! Anyway, what would you say different then her relatives?

I think you should babysit. When the kids are in your house, your rules apply. I've often said, "We don't do that in our house," to visiting friends. Those kids need some structure and discipline and perhaps attention, and you could make this a wonderful experience for them (and help your friend out in the process).

Your friend works full time, has three kids 5 or under and a husband who doesn't help out. I'm sure she's overwhelmed and when people point out the bad behavior, it just adds to her stress.

i have a friend will devil children as my husband refers to them. We have decided we don't want them around our kids, and though i haven't said anything to my friend, i avoid seeing ehr w/the kids. Same thing. I feel bad i can't offer more to her in times of need, but my family comes bfore hers.

one posting was rather harsh. I do believe it can be a result of inconsistent parenting. However... if her husband is not helpful or sets things up to be more difficult for her, its more an issue w/hubby than her. I gotta say though she sounds oblivious. it would be one thing if she could recognize it. one thing i have done around my one friend is when my friend doesn't correct her kids behavior (if its at my house or around my kids) i correct her kids. sort of a modeling behavior thing (not time outs or anything).

another thing i've done was suggest "you know I read when kids break toys it means blah blah blah.. or you could blah blah blah"

she sounds overwhelmed and defensive. perhaps if you offer a solution before or w/o judgement she may be apprciative.

also. i know my son who's 3 has gone through different phases of hitting and talking back and some of that is normal (some), but my husband and i realize its much worse (oh and the whining) when he's not able to spend much time w/him.

good luck.
its not your problem if it doesn't have to come into your house and its not your problem to fix if she doesn't even recognize it!

If your friend knows about Mammasource than I would show her your post & all of these wonderful responses. Good luck.

I can understand your concern about losing the friendship but it sounds like the kids are kind of in the way anyway! You can't truly be the kind of friend you'd like to be because of her children's behavior so I don't think you have that much to lose by having a heart to heart with her. Hopefully you can convey to her that it is out of love for her and her children that you are letting her know how difficult their behavior makes things for everyone. Good luck!

Thank goodness there are family and friends out there with unconditional love who are willing to accept children with or without challenges. These children are young and are all ready being labeled monsters. I wonder how they will turn out? It sounds like the mother isn't willing to call her children monsters and doesn't want to hear about it from others. Perhaps a more positive approach would work. Look for the strengths in the children. You never know what stresses are going on at home. Don't assume!!!

Is she asking you for advice on her childrens behavior or your opinions on why nobody will help her by babysitting her kids? If not, do not give her your 2 cents, this is a boundary issue and none of your business...UNLESS she asks you specifically. It is not your job to watch her children so she can go out with her husband or whatever. This is her problem, and she needs to resolve it. She chose to have 3 kids and a husband that doesn't help her out much and also has made the decision on how to raise them/discipline them...she needs to live with the consequences or make some changes. If she asks you to watch her children I would tell her that her children do not listen to you and will not follow your rules and this will make it too difficult for you when you have your own kids also (who follow your house rules and are well behaved). I would leave it at that unless she asks more. If she is offended, then that is her problem. It may ruin your friendship or she may see things in a different light. Don't gang up on her and tell her that is how everyone else feels about her kids...she should have a conversation with her brother and sisters in law. Good luck.

Talk to them - it is worth the risk. You may lose your friendship, but when these children get to school they are going to have trouble with classmates, teachers and the prinicipal. There are certain behaviors that are not tolerated in this society and the problems will just get worse.

Watch Super Nanny to copy the words she uses with parents who just want to be friends and not use discipline on a consistent basis.
M. in EGV

Hi M.-

You also could leave all of the "issues" out of it, and just helped a friend in need?! Leave your kids at home to bond with dad, and just go help. Let them destroy her house and her toys. Plan a structured event for you and her kids and give her a few hours of needed time to "catch up". Best Wishes!

M..

I agree with most of the advice so far... I could add a few ideas,
1. Offer to watch her kids at her house (leaving your kids home with your husband). And if she asks why, say to her that you have stricter rules in your home, and you want her children to be comfortable. (that might clue her in, but probably not...)
2. See if there is a parenting course in your area, many public schools have Parent University classes (a one or two evening deal), or even something through a local YMCA, particularly if there is child care available. Sign up for the class, and ask her to take it with you...
3. I agree that I would rather know and have someone be honest with me and tell me when my kids are not behaving, but you have to be prepared to loose a friend. It may be she needs to hit a far deeper bottom before she is ready to reach out for help. When she gets offended, remind her that you value her friendship and keep the communication lines open (send birthday cards, Christmas cards, party invitations etc...) There is a part of me that feels the greater part of love is willingness to give up a friend to do the right thing. Can you imagine her life when her children are old enough to drive???? She needs some tough love, and while she is not hearing it from her own family, perhaps coming from you she will finally get it. Definitely re-assure her how much you value your friendship and your goal is to help her identify why she is in that predicament and your willingness to help her through it. Good Luck,