4 Yr Old Pre-schooler Getting Worse the More Teacher Cracks down (And Us)

She sounds totally normal to me. It's their job to help her learn over this year to sit down and pay attention. That's what pre-K should be all about. It's teaching them how to be a successful kindergartner.

take her out of prek and put her into a daycare situation where she is with kids all day and learns first the social aspect. then put her into a prek later. you don't say when her birthday is but if she is a young 4 she may need the extra time before kindergarten. from the teachers point of view she has likely 20 kids to deal with and just imagine if all 20 of them decided hey I don't want to listen and behave today so I'm going to just go do whatever I want all day. thats not ok. whether you have 1 kid or 30 thats not ok. not ok at home or at school.

meant to mention also. time out in the hallway is not time out. time out is her sitting on a designated space in the same room but on a chair or rug and not being allowed to move or talk or the time starts all over again. visiting in the hall is not a time out lol however the ignoring it thing is not an option in a classroom of kids

I think she is acting exactly like a bright 4 year-old and she needs a more experienced, more skilled, more interested/interesting teacher. Or, maybe a differently structured preK or daycare setting.

OMG......Too much trouble for something that actually is not a big deal. May be you want to ask for a class in which a more experienced teacher is available, or change schools. Your little one will learn and will adjust to any environment and new little friends, a classroom setting and other adults, but she needs a more, as I said, experienced teacher.
Your kid is totally normal, there are not any behavioral issues H.. She is LITTLE, smart and active like any other child of her age.

It sounds like she is a normal 4 year old who has never been in a school, class, or child child care setting.

The teachers are making a bigger deal of it than it should be, and are trying to label your daughter instead of giving her some time to settle in or taking the time to teach her how things work at school. Your daughter is not a "problem child", so they SHOULD know how to help her through. If things don't get better, I might consider either putting her in more of a daycare environment, or a whole other preschool altogether.

Even at 6, and in 1st grade, my DD can lose focus in the classroom. The teacher would never give her a time out, take away her recess, or send her to the principals office. She would tell me about the issue and I would talk to my DD about it. Now, DD has been in daycare, and preschool, so I do think it helped by the time she got to "real" school.

"Behavioral Health"? That's not a term I know. I assume the teacher is telegraphing the message, "Your child needs professional help" here?

I give a lot of credit to teachers but...this teacher does not seem to have the ability to handle your child. From what you describe, your child is not a wild child, biting, hitting, breaking down in tantrums, etc. The teacher should be able to handle her sociability and need for attention better than this, frankly. I don't favor putting all problems onto teachers but in this case I wondered the following, things for you to ask for yourself:

--How experienced is this teacher? The main classroom teacher whom your child sees each school day? I question why, so soon into the school year, the teacher is requesting meetings and suggesting outside "mental health" interventions when the behavior does not seem to warrant it. Is the teacher possibly either quite inexperienced, or a longtime teacher who is burned out and not really willing to handle kids any more?

--How often is your daughter iin preschool? You don't say (sorry if I missed it). If she is just now starting it, and is in it more than maybe three half-days a week at the most -- she is there for too long and too many days. If she is going daily, please reconsider and have her going less often, and if she's going all day long, that is likely too long. Yes, she is social, but she also is in her very first formal "school" setting and needs to be eased iin and have more down time. I suggest a program that lets her go every other day (Mon-Wed-Fri) for a half-day to start, then next year working up to every day but only half-days if possible. (Unless she starts K next fall, 2013)

--Why are these time outs in a location where your child can chat to passers-by? The time outs should not be in the hallway where your daughter can "chat up the older kids" because that is not time out -- that is a pure treat for her. I would immediately talk with the preschool director and tell her that time outs will work only if the location is isolated. Your child should not get the "reward" of yakking up older kids during what is intended as a time of isolation from her classmates. This makes me question the school's approach to time out altogether.

--You are right. You are only one month into the school year. I am really surprised that any preschool teacher would be having the counselor involved and frankly kind of giving up on your child this early. It may be a red flag that this is not the classroom for your child. But it will be disruptive if you move her right now. I'd tell the teacher (with the preschool director, not just the counselor, present) that you are very willing to work with them all but that talking to other kids, not paying attention, etc. are normal though problematic, and you feel they're pigeonholing your daughter in the first four weeks of school as a "problem child."

I would see if you can observe classes from somewhere your child cannot see you (she will act differently if she knows you are watching). Is this teacher expecting these kids to be little straight-arrows? Does the teacher have enough help? Is the class overcrowded, and she's overwhelmed by any kind of disruption? Does the teacher ever just distract and redirect children or does she immediately move to punishments? Does she give kids any responsibilities, which can really help a sociable child like yours to mature and feel more like she is part of the group and therefore needs to behave as part of the group?

I know your kid's no angel -- no kid is! But really, what on earth would they do with a child who has real behavioral issues such as lashing out physically or breaking down in tears frequently?

And yes, it would be OK if you end up feeling your daughter is not yet mature enough to be in a school setting. If she is not slated to start K in the fall of 2013, you could wait another year for preschool, and instead do lots of play dates and find a playgroup; find classes for "mom and me" through your local parks and recreation department or community center or YWCA or at local churches etc. Music Together, Kindermusik, art classes, short dance classes where she can really move, etc. She will be with other kids and have fun and gain the idea of listening to an adult who is not a parent -- a very important stepping-stone to preschool and K.

If she is only one year from K, you might want to stick with preschool because it's important in getting kids ready for K -- and she sounds like she needs the preparation for being in a group setting. But this may or may not be the right preschool or teacher.

I would agree with the other posters. Nothing is wrong with your daughter. She is just a normal 4 year old. I am going through something a little similar with my son who has a problem transition from play to other tasks and sitting at circle time. I have found that if I go over what the schedule is going to be that day, it helps him out a lot. Perhaps you could go over the schedule with her before school. We have also done some role playing with school where I am the teacher and my son is the student. He seems to get a kick out of it. If all else fails, don't feel like you are stuck with that school. You can always transfer somewhere else and personally I would be looking for a new school as I think it is ridiculous that they are already labeling her behavior as a problem and telling you to seak help. This is coming from a mother of a boy who is also strong willed and spirited. Nothing wrong with these types of kids, you just have to figure out how to best approach them and ask them to do stuff.

Hmmmm, October 10th, just a few weeks into school, 4-year old, only child, first time in school. Where have I heard this story before? Oh yeah, that was my son 2 years ago. Except mine was not disruptive by being too chatty and sociable. Mine had tantrums. Inexperienced teacher didn't have the first clue how to handle him so she basically decided there was something wrong with him and he needed an evaluation and early intervention. I resisted because everyone who knew him said he was a normal 4-year old who just wasn't used to school yet. We butted heads but guess who was ultimately right? Last year I sent him to a play-based program for Pre-K and he did extremely well. He started Kindergarten this year and (fingers crossed) so far, so good.

In my personal opinion, Nursery and Pre-K should be for learning social cues and starting to understand the basic rules of sitting, listening, engaging in group and individual activities, etc. alongside lots of play. Some kids are going to be good at this right away and others are going to take a little longer. I just think it's ridiculous to expect everyone to adapt right away. Is this program more focused on learning than play?

Keep working with the teacher but you may also want to cast around for a different type of Pre-K program. The most important thing to me about the Pre-K program I finally settled on was that they offered 2 to 3 recess breaks a day. 4-year olds need to play, play, play.

As a mom with a child with sensory issues (that cause or contribute to behavioral issues) and speech issues, I'm going to agree with you. Believe me, we've done play therapy, speech therapy, physical therapy and occupational therapy and have received some great results. Your child doesn't sound all that different from other kids first starting school. She doesn't really know the rules and norms, and it does take time to learn them. Also, it sounds like the school's idea of time out is not one that is effective with your daughter. Has the school practiced the concept of "time-in" vs time-out? That may be more effective. Have they tried giving choices? Have the appealed to her sweet nature by enlisting her help either by saying, "It would really help Ms. Teacher if you would sit right here to listen to the story so that you are a good example to the younger kids?" or "If you sit quietly for the story, you can be the line leader (or caboose) at recess today." Have they tried using some exciting big words to catch her attention when they make the request? Have they tried helping with transitions. Is the daily schedule posted on the board along with a picture so that kids can track where they are? Is there a solid classroom structure and routine, which kids crave? Does the class have so much stuff in it that it is overstimulating to your daughter?

Here's the other possibility....maybe your daughter's class is BORING! Yes, there, I said it. My daughter's class at that age had a schedule that was so boring that I wanted to yawn just reading it...and my daughter didn't behave in her class either. Observe the class a few times at different times of the day and see what's going on for yourself.

My experience with daycares/schools so far (and my daughter is only 5) is that generally they would rather find something wrong with a child than find something wrong with their own program, school or teachers. When you ask them to perhaps try another way of discipline or reaction, they respond with reasons they cannot do that vs. finding a way to truly apply it. It's possible that this just isn't the right school for your daughter. It's also possible that you need to enroll her in some other structured learning atmospheres (classes, sunday school, etc). It's possibe that she could have some developmental issues, but I sure wouldn't go there yet based on what you've described.

Based on what you said, there is no way I'd go to a behavioral specialist. Besides everything else, health insurance generally covers developmental delays and excludes treatment for behavior. What you've described does not warrant the expense, time or stress. Also, your kid is likely not the only one doing this....you may just be the parent most concerned about your kid doing it, so the school may pile it on thicker to you than other parents. Hmmmm, do I sound jaded?

Your daughter is "immature." Hmm, an immature 4yo, imagine that! ;-) But she also sounds like a real hands-on, natural, warm and friendly child. Her socialization needs may be a little higher than many of her classmates, but there is really nothing "wrong" with that, and in fact, it may serve her very well in coming years.

In a well-meant attempt to "prepare" children, I really think the parental and educational communities often forget a most critical truth: Four-year-olds already have a full-time job, through which they gradually learn all they really need to know at that age. That job looks like nothing to an adult, but it's critical. That job is primarily play, and learning basic skills and relationships. (And kids can get so much academic knowledge pumped in before first grade that they will have to wait for other students to catch up when "real" school starts, resulting in boredom.)

Google "Children and play" an similar key phrases to find out what child-development researchers verify repeatedly with all kinds of studies. If your daughter's school is so intent on teaching academics that they require kids to stop being themselves, or worse yet, will punish them for harmless, natural, child-like behavior, it could be a poor match for your daughter. Her response seems to bear that out.

Punishment is used to correct inappropriate behavior, but it's only one of many forms of correction, some of which are non-punitive. All punishments do not work equally well for all children, and some are rather arbitrary pr convenient inventions, like the minute-per-year time-out. Some punishments work very poorly, but have been used for so many generations we forget they are simply thought to be the "best" alternative be the adults who employ them.

Since the punishments employed are clearly not working, you might try positive reinforcement: look for those sometimes fleeting moments during which your daughter is behaving in ways you find appropriate, and comment on them with approval. This can often get compliant children competing with their own conflicting desires to give grownups more of what they like, and more of what earns the social reward of approval.

Wherever you go with this problem, I truly hope you find a solution that works out for both of you.

Your child is 4, of course she is immature. This is pretty typical behavior, I have taught plenty of 4 year olds in a class setting. She will learn the rules of the classroom as she continues in the school year. You can practice playing school with her about sitting quietly, raising her hand to answer questions and that sort of thing. Teach her how her talking not only inhibits her ability to learn, but those of the others. Also, time out isn't working b/c it is entertainment, she gets to do what she likes, have attention and talk. Time out would be more effective if she had to sit alone quietly. Ignoring won't work, she needs to learn consequences. Our school has the kids put a big 'bubble' in their mouth (they close their mouth and puff out their cheeks) and fold their arms in a self-hug to help them learn to be quiet. They think it's silly and it teaches them at the same time.

I am respectfully sceptical of the answers you have gotten.

I would suggest you physically go to the school when DD doens't know you will be there, and WATCH.

See, what i hear you saying is, your child is a bit difficult at home, But you ( an the other responses) are expecting the teacher to be able to give your DD the one on one highmaintenance time that you are able to give her at home, WHILE managing a classroom full of other children.

Maybe this isn't the right place for her, But I have to say it's pretty dang Tough to Ignore a child when you are managing a group of children. IT's one thing at home when you can tune her out, but what about the other kids, are they going to know how to Ignore her when she is chatting away at them when they are trying to listen to a story? Maybe the teacher could just read louder? see what i mean. I don't think ignoring works in large group situations when many people are being affected. Like Lets take a toddler to catholic mass and just ignore them running down the aisles, talking during pray, Singing during the sermon, Ignoring probably isnt' the best tatic in this case.

Asking Dd to be a helper might work. That was a great suggestion. Being willing to sit through that meeting really shows your support of your child. I"m surprised music time isn't fun for her, usually kids high energy kids love all the music and movement.

When they say she is immature that means compared to other 4 yos, she is lagging. Not that she is more immature than a 10 yo of course she would be, They are probably pretty used to dealing with kids and have a feel for what is typical behavior and what is not.

I"m not saying you need to work with a behavior specialist, but i am wondering if you think her behavior will improve with age or if at 15 she will be willful and rambuncious in all sorts of great new ways. to be honest she sounds like she no one pays attention to her at home, ans she needs to be right there getting attention from everyone else.

Sorry if i'm coming off crabby. I just think people really need to see what is going on for themselves.

she is 4 a normal 4 year old. I would expect an outgoing social child to have problems sitting and listening when there are other kids to chat with. that is normal. the concerning part .. is that she is not understanding that being sent out of the group.. to the office or principal is a bad thing..

Is this a young inexperienced teacher... some teachers have the "tone" they give kids the look with the right tone of voice and the kid shapes up.

i do not see this a behavior problem in a 4 year old. however kindergarten is right aroudn the corner and this behavior will not be tolerated in kindergarten.

It doesn't seem like "missing out on the fun activities" will do the trick. She makes her own fun - just like when she's in time out. She's not feeling that she's being punished; she's being put in a situation that is allowing her to interact with other children which is what she wants to do.

I think the problem is that you and dad have been too lax with her at home and she doesn't get the concept of doing what she's told THE FIRST TIME. If I were to guess, I'd guess you use that 1,2,3, magic method which teaches your child that you will tell them everything 3 times without a consequence.

I don't belong to that mindset. In my home, I tell the child one time and then the consequence is implemented. I don't have the time or patience to sit around wondering whether the child is going to obey. My ex daughter-in-law is amazed because when I tell H to do something, the ONLY response I get is "Yes, grandma." And it is said just like that. Not "yeah" or "okay" or "in a minute" but "yes, grandma." That is because from the time she was born (she lived with me) I taught her that when grandma tells you to do something the ONLY acceptable response is "yes grandma." Her mom is a bit more lax and as a result has problems. I have none and my granddaughter LOVES ME TO DEATH. She comes and spends EVERY weekend with me.

So, I think you are right in that your daughter found the boundaries lacking, but I suggest that they are also lacking at home. I believe if you crack down on her at home, it will carry over to the classroom.

I also believe in practicing. I would have her "practice" how to be in school at home. Do circle reading having her sit on the floor while you read the book and show the pictures just like in school. She is required to sit quietly and listen and if she has a comment, she MUST raise her hand. If she fails, start the book all over again. Continue doing it until she can get through the whole book.

Also, have her practice sitting still. Just make her sit on the couch or in a chair and not move or talk for 5 minutes. Increase the time she is sitting over time until she is able to sit quietly for a decent length of time.

Another thing to consider is they always say, like with counseling or therapy, that things get worse before they get better so maybe you are on the right track and she just needs more time.

My son was barely 5 when he started Kindergarten. He had been in a very small pre-school for ages 3 & 4 (like less than 7 kids to one teacher small) so he knew the "rules". But, kindergarten -wow - larger classes, bigger room - every so exciting.

He spent the first week breaking every rule. He would crawl under the tables and refuse to come out. He would wander around the room when he was supposed to be sitting, he would talk to everyone.

The school, and I, swiftly implemented consequences for this behavior. He was sent to the Principal's office the second day of school. He lost recess and play time at school and lost privileges at home. He had to have lunch in the principal's office. It was a rough week.

But, by the second week he had realized that it was actually more fun to follow the rules. Following the rules meant he got to play at recess, got rewards, and keep his privileges at home.

Ignoring will not work with these children. Ignoring is like handing them the key to the candy store. Ignoring is telling them that their behavior is not egregious and allows them to continue merrily on their disruptive way.

You need to meet with the school again, and come up with a plan, for school and home, that meets your child's behavior head on and in a straight forward manner. There really does need to be big consequences for her behavior, both at school and home. It is hard - but ultimately, better for her. School goes on for many years. My son still had his moments through elementary school - spent a few days every year in ISS - but at 16 he is a good student - and while he chaffs at the rules still, he understands that he has to follow him until he is old enough (and self sufficient enough) to handle the consequences on his own.

Sounds like she is thriving on the negative attention however ignoring behavior in a classroom setting is next to impossible. It would require both teacher and student involvement and i don't know a 4 yo or even a 6 or 8 yo who can ignore another child in that setting, it is even hard for an adult. And if the other kids can't ignore her then the teacher is having no choice but to give them attention and in turn your daughter still gets a reaction. She is probably very bright and she may be bored. she may be needing some extra attention in more positive ways. At home she should be doing chores. My 4 yo has quite a few chores. He helps to unload the dishwasher, he empties his hamper in a laundry basket when full and pushes to the kitchen where I then carry it downstairs. He cleans up his toys. He clears his plate from the table and places dirty dishes in the sink. He helps his sister clean up their room. He is learning to help fold the laundry. My 7 year old has been helping fold laundry for a few years and can do everything now, but he is folding socks and underwear, and was very excited to learn to fold pants last week. My daughter was showing him how, it was very cute. But at 4 they can and should be doing a lot to help out, it helps build their understanding of cooperation as well as gives them a sense of pride in accomplishment. Perhaps implementing more responsibility at home will help her understand her responsibility in a classroom setting. And do expect more from her, if she is bright she may be bored form lack of expectation and not being challenged enough. A bored child is a recipe for behavioral issues. And she could be bored even in her playtime. Try giving her more challenges. You could try the behavioral health route and they may be able to help. But it sounds more like her immaturity for a 4 year old is due to her not understanding her own role, which is a learned behavior and with her being an only child and not many other children around it is an expected issue and will need to be worked on more. So I would suggest having them expect more of her and give her more responsibility in the classroom as well as you giving her more at home. Continue to use your discipline consistently both at home and in the classroom, ignoring won't work in a classroom and doing it in one place and not the other shows inconsistency and will be confuse her. So don't ignore at home either, she needs to learn one thing across the board. Kids are linear thinkers at this age. Anyway I hope that helps, and don't feel bad about your kid being the one as there are lots and lots of them who have issues with starting school.