5 year old with defiant and aggressive behavior

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1

I am at my wits end. My 5 year old (almost 6) and he has been displaying defiant and aggressive behavior in school and at home. At home, he tends to get rough with his brother, dog and cat and we have to constantly tell him to not be so rough. (Such as wrestling with them and not stopping when we say to stop). He doesn't listen at all. I mean almost never. He will say "just one minute" or just do exactly what I asked him not to do. He is defiant and just now I asked him to write his letters and not to color and he looked at me with a defiant look and colored anyway.

At school he gets in trouble for talking too much and not listening in class. He's been getting into more serious trouble during recess by fighting with other kids and wrestling them to the ground. The teachers are at their limit and I'm afraid of what will happen next.

He is a very smart kid and I've got people saying that it is the fact that he is not challenged enough. Some of this behavior was showing up in his K4 class last year. I brought it up and most people just blew if off as regular 4-5 year old behavior. I didn't believe it then, nor do I believe it now.

I plan on calling the doctor in the morning, to see what he thinks. Truthfully, the last thing we can afford is another medical bill, but we will do what we have to. Any others have this problem?

** Sorry I forgot to mention our punishments. We have tried taking away toys, time outs. Mostly now we give him time outs. We've tried offering a day at the dinosaur museum for a month of good days at school. Today he got into major trouble with fighting at school again and his teacher's note was almost throwing up her hands with him. So as of last week's bad note, we decided to take a different approach. Every day he doesn't have a good day, he doesn't get to play with toys or watch TV. He has to sit and write his letters or read a book. Which is why he got in trouble for coloring instead of writing his letters. He was sent to bed mostly because I was sick of his attitude and I didn't want to blow up at him. All evening he questions everything we say, yells at us for being mean cause he can't watch TV or play, over and over complains how he doesn't want to write letters. But it doesn't change what he does at school, even though he knows the consequences. We ask him why he does the fighting in recess and he doesn't give us an answer. We ask him if he knows its wrong and he says yes. I am getting so frustrated with him

.

2

Smart or not... or challenged or not in school... a child has to learn... that that is NOT the way to act.
A child, needs to learn, humility and be a citizen like anyone else.
Being 'smarter' does not mean... a child is 'better' than others.
And they need to learn, good sportsmanship and how to be, nice. Bottom line.

He is 5. And acting like this, is NO longer "cute." Nor will adults or other children, see it as cute, nor excuse him for it, just because he is "smart."
That is not a trump card.

Emotional I.Q. is a whole, other development and skill and awareness.

This is a good article:
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

Any child, smart or gifted or not... will not have friends, if they continue to act like this.
This is a social repercussion, of that.

His emotional acuity... is not on par, yet. And smartness, has nothing to do with that.
He needs to be guided... and taught.

And, simply talk to him and ask him "WHY" he acts like this? Ask it as an open-ended question... not answering for him. Ask him it... and then pause for as long as you need to.... until he answers.
And see what he says.

Since he is so 'smart'... he NEEDS TO LEARN... how to HANDLE that.
So that, he turns out WELL-ROUNDED.
He has to develop in other ways TOO.
Not just focusing on his 'smartness.'
Over time, this will benefit him, most.

Your son probably since birth, has heard people talk about how "smart" he is. But, this is going to become, his detriment. And, weakness and/or sabotage him.
He needs to become, well rounded. Developing OTHER aspects, of himself. Not just about his smartness.
But about himself, as a person.

3

You never mentioned what type of discipline or consequences you are using? It is hard to answer your question without telling us what you have tried.

4

Sounds like my son! He was kicked out of preschool, that i worked at. When I found a dr psychiatrist who would see such a young child he was diagnosed with ADHD. And was put on meds. After a couple months of only getting worse and having to take him to the hospital because he was so out of control. Well he's since been diagnosed as bipolar. I'm not saying your son is, but I would definatly get in contact with a child pyschiatrist because if there is some underlying issues a pediatrician should not be the one diagnosing him. Good luck with your son!

5

Could it be that your son is in need of a more consistent, empathic parenting style? Do you have consistent rules with definite consequences when they're broken? Emphasis on consistent. Every time he is too rough he is given a time out, sent to his room, or separated from his brother, the cat, the dog?

What did you do when he continued to color and looked defiant?

I suggest that you read Parenting with Love and Logic for ideas of how to provide consistent and realistic consequences for behavior, both good and not so good. 1-2-3 Magic is another good book to help with getting children's co-operation.

I do suggest that telling him to write letters instead of coloring could've been handled in a less controlling way. From your words and his reaction sounds like you challenged him which does usually result in rebellion. The two you were in a power struggle and he won because there was no consequence.

Perhaps you could've avoided this situation if you'd asked him to write his letters in different colors. Praise him by telling him you know he can write letters to make a pretty page, perhaps. Appeal to his ability to do well. Find out what motivates him.

The fighting on the playground sounds like he has anger issues. I suggest getting help from a counselor who specializes in children. If the school has a counselor that would be a good place to start.

Have you considered that he may have a developmental problem that is making it difficult for him to focus and pay attention? ADHD is just one such condition. He could have difficulty with sensory issues. Ask the doctor about this.

Being not challenged enough can result in not paying attention but it doesn't, in it's self cause anger and defiance. I've seen kids who talked too much, wandered the classroom, and were generally inattentive but they didn't play too rough or get into fights.

I suggest finding out why he's so angry and sympathetically deal with those feelings while providing clear and consistent rules and consequences. Not an easy thing to do. Taking a parenting class and/or reading some parenting books would help you find a way to deal with him.

I suggest that not allowing him TV or play is too extreme and is unrelated to the offense of fighting. It only makes him angry which detracts from his ability to learn a lesson. Try to find a consequence that fits the misbehavior. And your emotional involvement makes it less effective, too. I suggest that today was a bust.

First, try to back off, emotionally. Disciplining while upset is rarely effective.

Have you tried having quiet time with him talking about what happened and how to change it? I suggest some cuddle time with positive reinforcement will help him to allow softer feelings.

Didn't he have a consequence at school? No need for a second consequence but a huge need to find a way to relate with him so that he knows that you're concerned (not angry) and that you want him to learn how to get along with people.

Teach him how to get along by getting along with him. Teach him sympathy by being sympathetic with him. I'm not saying not to give him consequences. I am saying that it sounds like your focus has been on punishment and it would be more helpful to focus on teaching him ways to get along while showing him sympathy for the rotten way he feels.

Talk with him about what he can do,instead of fighting, when he gets angry. Tell him to go to his teacher or another adult on the playground and tell them he is angry and ask their help, for example. Suggest he run around the perimeter of the playground to get his angry energy out.

Role play with him, showing him how to get along. Have him help set up the role play. Ask him to describe a kid who makes him angry. Then have him be that kid and you show him how to get out of the situation without a fight.

It sounds like you have an adversarial relationship now. Find a way to get on his side so that he will work with you to make life better. It may help to have a counselor work with the both of you.

My daughter and her daughter were starting down that path with my granddaughter challenging everything her mother said, using a snotty tone of voice. They worked with a counselor and life is better. The counselor provided a way for both of them to air their grievances and deal with their feelings so that they could start over with some new skills.

6

He sounds like my friend's son, who was Dx'd with ODD eventually.
Good luck. Good plan to call the pediatrician.

7

If the "firmest" you've ever tried is time outs and removals of stuff, I'd pull out all the stops before assuming it's medical. Lots of boys act this way. I'm not saying he doesn't have a medical condition, I'm saying I would try being firmer before I pursued that. The book Back to Basics Discipline is great for attitude and discipline for boys that age. Boys are tough, they have testosterone. Lots of them don't care about time outs and losing luxuries, and don't care much to earn treats when they'd rather misbehave. Also, being fair and nice may make them angry and resentful when they need firmer boundaries. School is also not allowed to be tough on kids, so I'm not surprised he isn't keeping out of trouble there either. Scan the book on Amazon and see if it may help. I would be much tougher on the behavior you describe than what you're listing here. My friend has a fairly atrocious 7 year old who has had time outs his whole life. He literally laughs at his mom for giving them to him because they're "dumb and annoying". They've certainly never deterred his bad behavior before. If your sons consequences were serious to him, he wouldn't dare be yelling at you and questioning you all day. He would have given up that angle long ago in favor of peace and harmony. I know this from experience.

Sounds like he needs two drastic changes. More love, attention, time with dad, responsibilities, and respect for the more mature kid he is becoming (I'm sure you do all that, but we can all improve when crisis hits), AND much firmer discipline.

8

How old is the brother? Is he younger, I assume?

Could he be jealous? Maybe your son needs more one on one with you or his dad, or both and maybe the way you say things makes him more angry. I'm not saying that is the case but you can say 'write letters and don't color' many different ways. Something is bothering him and making him angry and maybe you should try to figure out what that is by talking with others, counseling or something that will help you all understand what is going on with him. I think taking away TV and no toys has little to do with the behavior he is having. I would use that as punishment for not doing school work and watching TV or playing instead. Maybe the punishment should fit the 'crime' more than it is.

9

Well, I have seen a lot of similar behavior (maybe less severe) with my own 5.5 year old son. Ironically I am trained in counseling... It is really hard to be patient and sympathetic when you are totally frustrated as a parent (I feel that way a lot too).

Talking to the pediatrician for a referral or to the school counselor is a good place to start. There may be a diagnosable problem (like ADHD, ODD or a few other possibilities) or there may not. Whether or not you have a label for the behavior or not it would probably help to talk with a professional for some strategies to deal with the problem behaviors.

Some helpful books were already mentioned in another post (123 magic and Love and Logic). There are a few books for managing your defiant or strong willed child but I can't recall the exact title right now (check the library of book store). 123 Magic has a good strategy: get your child's attention and give then until 3 before they get a consequence. Often it takes a few seconds to process a request and change what you are doing. It may not be enough when aggressive, unsafe behavior needs to be stopped immediately. But the pattern of counting, giving a warning and then a consequence helps for less critical behavior. The pattern also gives the child an idea of how serious you are (if you are on 1, 2 or 3).

When I read your post it comes across that you are frustrated with your son's behavior and he gets a lot punishments and angry controlling behavior from you. (I struggle with this a lot myself--it is so hard to be patient when you are frustrated and angry). It may work better if you can make the punishments shorter and more immediate (like short time outs with an explanation rather then the whole afternoon, small rewards he can earn the same day not in a week or a month). Giving consequences that resemble school work may backfire in the long run and make schoolwork into more of a struggle. Also he needs opportunities to do things right and get positive reinforcement and attention. You (or a counselor) may need to sit down and talk him through how he could handle a situation better next time. For example the fighting at school. Ask him what he should do if someone is bothering him and let him make suggestions then add on to the list. In that example he could tell the person to stop, walk away, tell a teacher, etc. He needs help knowing how to handle a situation and then practicing until he gets better at doing it.

Some other ideas that have helped in our house have been: making bedtime a little earlier (my son has almost no impulse control when overtired), giving him physical outlets for his aggressive energy (jump on a trampoline, shoot baskets, run around outside, hit or crash into a pile of pillows) and giving him at least 10-20 minutes of positive attention where you aren't giving him any commands every day. The positive attention is hard to get started when you are feeling frustrated--but if you can just try it for a week then you may start to enjoy it too. It helps me to get a break away from my kids when I can so I can come back more patient and less frustrated.

10

If he has Oppositional Defiant Disorder punishing him has no meaning at all. He may need to be evaluated by a psychologist. ODD is a treatable illness that may be ongoing for his entire life. He needs to be evaluated ASAP so he can get the meds needed. If it's not that they may also be able to tell you if he is gifted or some other thing that is not showing up.

11

It can be pretty easy to "see" bad behavior. It could be he is just seeking attention and doesn't know any other way to get it. I know I used to yell at my boys for misbehaving until I realized they knew how to push my buttons. What worked for my was focusing on good behavior and ignoring the bad. I started on a friday after school by totally ignoring (no response or comment) anything I didn't like. This was the hardest thing I had to do. By sunday afternoon, there was a hugh change in both of us. If you want more details, feel free to write back.

12

You need to find his currency. What does he like more than anything? With my son, it was TV and video games. He got 4 TV tickets worth 30 minutes each day. He could turn them in for a quarter each at the end of the day, AND he could lose them for bad behavior.
Taking his TV was like cutting off his right arm. :-)
What happens at school needs to be dealt with at school AND at home. What happens at home needs to be dealt with consistently and immediately. I have to say that you are starting to lower the boom almost too late, but better late than never.

You need to stop the wrestling. Just do NOT allow it in your home. If he is rough with the animals, he gets time out immediately. If he is rude, he gets time out immediately. If he is disruptive - he gets time out immediately. He will spend a LOT of time in the chair initially. Time outs -- he needs to sit quietly for the 5 minutes. If he talks, kicks, whines, or gets up, it starts over.

it will get worse before it gets better.

ALSO -- enroll him in Karate. He needs an outlet for his aggression. Karate will teach him self defense, leadership, and impulse control. It was the best thing we did for our boy.
LBC

13

i can completely relate - my son is nearly 5 and we have had behavioral challenges since he was born. We have tried all of the regular discipline strategies and nothing has worked - he doesn't care. My son is addicted to negative attention - we over praise the good behavior and ignore (if possible - like if he's not hurting anyone or being destructive to the house) the bad....that helps.

2 years ago my son was diagnosed on the autism spectrum and now after a few evaluations the pediatric team is thinking anxiety mixed with ADHD - even so, no matter what the diagnosis, we need to work on turning the behavior around. I think it's great you are talking with the pediatrician. Our family has benefitted from our son going through a number of therapy approaches (he is also in a special ed preschool as of now) and we go as a family to counseling. My son, too, is extremely smart and gets extremely fidgety and obnoxious when he is 'bored' at school - it is something we have discussed at his IEP meetings and are addressing. They recently added in school counseling once a week to his IEP.
Best of luck = I know how exhausting and frustrating it is.

14

Have you tried putting him in sports? It sounds like he has a lot of energy and (perhaps) aggression to burn. Being part of a team and having a coach authority figure might help him channel that and help build skills to know what is appropriate play and what is not. That way you minimize idle time. Good luck!

15

He may be effected by the foods that he is eating. Is he eating things with artificial colors, flavors, sugars or preservatives BHA, BHT or TBHQ? Our DD's aggressiveness is HIGHLY tied to this items. She even can tell us that they make her angry. When she is reacting on foods like this she cannot control herself, but she can when those foods are out of her diet...she can stop the bad behavior.

We follow the Feingold diet and have found it to be very successful following it 100%. Your story sounds very familiar.

I wish you the best and encourage you to really look at your diet and see what he's eating - the candy that they give out in school is FULL of that stuff.

16

I can completely relate - my son is the same age and sounds very similar. We have taken him to loads of children psychologists, play therapists, ocupational therapists, you name it. The only official DX we have is Sensory Processing Disorder. I think there is something else not quite right with him, but so far we don't have any other answers. Our peditrician was of NO help! I would seek out a psychologist first or less your peditrician is very open minded. My sister takes her child to a child pshychologist in Rockford and we saw him once (and liked him), but did not continue with him due to the distance. Let me know if you want his info - it was Dr. Griffith. Please feel free to send me a PM if you want to just vent, etc. I know how hard it is. Good luck!

17

Caryn, I can imagine how helpless you must feel. His silence when you ask him why he does it shows that he is hiding some sort of hurt feelings or anger inside. After he is sent to his room, and he has some time to cool off, go and hug him tight and then ask him whats wrong. I would really really recommend seeing a professional child psychologist, ask the school if they can recommend someone or have one appointed at the school if there is financial trouble. He is young enough that you can help him now, the longer you wait, the worse the situation and the harder it will be. Wish you the best.

18

Sounds alot like my 5 year old. He was kicked out of school for his violence. I sent him to a really cool school where they could really watch him and work with him. It was also a hospital. He was diagnosed with ADHD and was put on Adderall. BIG CHANGE. He was wonderful at home, but still having some trouble in school. So, the doctor put him on zoloft, and anti-depressant. That really kicked it. The anxiety that he had was really why his behavior had turned violent. He is back in regular school now and is doing great. Granted he is not a perfect angel, but I'm not pulling my hair out and crying every night like I used to. As for the medical bills, you can always ask for help. There are many places that will help you out financially if you just ask. We got a discount on the special school he went to and they set us up on payment plans. Most medications aren't expensive, but adderall can be hard to get ahold of.

19

Reading all the comments, I’m more confused than ever. There are so many different opinions about what to do. His “fighting” at school, I believe is more of a “playing very aggressively” but it’s hard to know without being there. So if I’m not punishing enough, what do you suggest? If schoolwork isn’t the way to punish, what do you suggest? Do I let him play with his toys or just sit around all evening? Some of the comments talked about how to handle time outs, and we’ve done those things. I’ve tried ignoring his bad behavior but when it sends his little brother crying, am I to ignore that? I think if it involved sitting quietly in a time out for 5 minutes, he’d be there all day. Anyway, thanks for you comments and I will just call the doctor.
**Adding on… Yes, he has been in sports. In fact, we just finished his soccer season.