Hi Ladies - I'm hoping to get some feedback on an issue I am currently dealing with. What would you do.....how would you feel?
Please look at this as happening to yourself, not happening to me.
You don't get along with your Ex (the father of your child) because he does not come to see your son, nor does he send money.
You recently found out (from your Ex.) that he has been communicating with your sister for awhile now (you have always been close to your sister and you trust her), and that he has recently sent her money to open an account for your son. However, you just went shopping for your son with your sister, thinking she was being generous.
Any and all input is sincerely appreciated. (don't be afraid to be honest)
Thank you.
First of all, I would like to thank EVERYONE for their invaluable input. I have taken everything into consideration.
Unfortunately, Natalie was correct in assuming that there is a LOT more to the story that I have not told. I will now be as honest as I can. My apologies for the length of this post, but believe me, it is worth the read.
I must mention that the money transfer was a one-time deal which ironically came approx. 2 weeks after I finally filed for child support (my son is three years old).
Well, I nonchalantly questioned my sister one day while my son and I were over her house. She very specifically told me that everything my Ex had told me was a lie.....and laughed it off. The following week, she made plans to come over to my house when my son was not there. After helping me around the house, she produced a greeting card that said “I’m sorry,” the receipt from the Western Union money transfer, and the receipt from our shopping trip, with the remaining cash. We spoke about the situation for a very long time. She told me that after my son and I left her house that day, she called my Ex. and put him in his place because it was supposed to be a secret between them, and I was never to know. She said that he had since been calling her, but she told him they could no longer be friends and that she was not answering his calls. She told me that she was only looking out for my son’s best interest, and that she had learned her lesson and would no longer interfere. I tried very hard to forgive her in my heart which, for the most part, I was successful.
Ironically, while she was at my house, my Ex. called her. She handed me the phone and I answered it. My Ex asked to speak to my sister, and when I handed her the phone, she told me to hang it up, which I did.
Last week, my Ex. called me (once again to complain about how he cannot afford child support). We had a very lengthy conversation and talked alot about what had happened in the past. During the conversation, he asked me why I had hung up on him. When I inquired further as to when, he told me that the day I answered my sister’s phone, my sister called him later that night to apologize, and told him that I was the one that hung up the phone. When I told him that I had only hung up because she told me to, he replied that “you sisters” are playing games,” and claimed that he had recorded her apology.
As far as my relationship with my Ex. is concerned, I have always begged him to have a relationship with his son, even letting him know that I really did not care about the money, I just wanted my son to know his father. ANYTIME he asked to see his son, I bent over backwards to oblige him. Then, something would happen in his life (that had nothing to do with me) and he would send me a message saying he did not want to deal with us anymore, and stop calling. My Ex’s issue is that he cannot separate OUR relationship from his relationship with my son. Ever since I decided I did not want to get married, I believe he has always resented me and has taken it out on my son, in an attempt to hurt me.
As far as my sister is concerned, we have had conversations in the past about my Ex. and at one point she even told me that if he even sent $5/month, at least that would show he is trying. Over time, I have asked her if she had spoken to him and the answer was always ‘no.’
My issue is that I am completely heartbroken because I keep thinking of little signs and situations that there has been something going on between them and that this communication has lasted for longer than I realized (or care to admit). My sister is not married and has no children and she has always said to anyone we meet that I gave birth to my son, but she is the mother. It was always a “joke” but now I am beginning to think there is more to it than that.
There are a lot of other little stories that I could tell, but I think I will end here.
Again, any and all opinions are greatly appreciated because I am here, slowly losing my mind (and faith) in people because I am simply so heartbroken!
Thanks again.....
Well quite frankly I am floored by some of the answers where moms are saying you should just be happy that he is sending money for your child. What? Seriously?!?! If he is not paying child support on a regualr basis for your son then he is a dead beat dad. Your sister double crossed you by not telling you that he has been calling her much less that he sent her money. There HAS to be more to this story
Well, child support is suppose to help provide the child with basic necessities--money towards rent, food, clothes, medical attention, etc. Sending money to your sister so she can use it to buy him toys and other non-necessities is NOT the same as financially supporting your child. If I was in your situation, then I would contact the state Attorney General's office or my county family court and ask how to garnish his wages and get the money your son needs for his welfare.
Speaking to your sister is irrelevant... You child's father is not supporting his kid. If he isn't providing child-support then he's a dead-beat dad... The state and family court have laws, programs and policies to deal with these types of parents.
It's your son's money... Your ex might ask you to provide an accounting of how the money is spent but my understanding is that the state/family court sees child support as being separate from whatever side arrangement you and your ex may agree upon.
He sent the money to your sister and she spent the money on his/your kids. What is the problem? I agree that he probably thinks that it is better to have a third party involved: either he doesn't want to deal with you (sorry) or he thinks you will not spend the money on the children. You said yourself that you do not get along. Maybe he doesn't see his children because you make it too difficult.
I say there is more to the story you are not telling. Apparently he wants to send money and cant or wont. Obviosuly your sister sees it ok to do it this way. Either way, look in the mirror and see whats wrong with you and why your sister and ex have to go around you to get money to that child to be spent on him.
I think that any help is better then no help.
Honestly, if your babys daddy doesn't want to see his child, then your child is better off without him.
I think your sister is being an amazing person, and you shouldn't focus on the fact she's been lying to you, you should thank her for helping you.
It seems to me that your Ex didn't want to send you a check because he doesn't trust you'll spend the money the way you should on your son. He trusts your sister to follow his wishes but he doesn't trust you so he gave your sister access to the cash knowing you and your sister are close and she will have the opportunity to spend the cash on the child the way he wants it spent. I'd feel hurt but since we don't get along, hence the divorce, it wasn't an unexpected turn of events.
In this event I'd probably go to a family lawyer and tell them my ex isn't sending child support directly to me but doing it in a roundabout stupid way by going through my sister. Then hopefully get a court order to send the cash directly to me or suffer the consequences.
This is all conjecture by the way. I base all this assumption off of the few things you've told me and how it appears from my perspective.
This is HARD! There are two responses - first it if were happening to me - I would cry and be so ANGRY at my sister. I would feel betrayed. Looking at it from a 3rd party persepctive - I think your sister was trying to help you and your son without upsetting you with the shopping - the communicating for a while - that was out of line. If your ex wanted information about your son, he should have upheld his duties as a father. Your ex is an as_ - no doubt about it. talk to your sister - find out what her motivation is, but make sure you tell her how HER part made you feel about YOUR relationship with her.
I think before jumping to conclusions and thinking your sister a backstabber I would just ask her why? I would not question your ex, because obviously he is a loser but I would just ask your sister to explain.
Your sister has been put in a bad spot by him. She knows he is not giving you the support you need and deserve so if she can help out by accepting money from him for your son then that way is better then no way. However if any of my sisters did that I would be pissed off beyond belief ... so you have to decided to vent here and let him think you do not really care what he does and with whom and as for your sister talk her about it or you have to decide if it is worth fighting about or not.Good Luck to you.
J.
J.,
Let me first say that if my sister had any kind of a realtionship with my ex-husband, even just a friendship, I would go absolutely BALLISTIC! NO WAY would that be OK with me. In my opinion, your sister is way out of line here, she is your sister, and should be supporting you in all things. If she needed to be at a function with your ex there (like your son's birthday party, for example) I would expect her to be courteous, but not to be having phone conversations behind your back. Your ex should be talking to YOU about your child, no one else.
As for the financial aspect, I would let the courts handle it. My response to your visitation concerns: If your ex is too much of an idiot to see what a wonderful, amazing little person you both created then, if I were in your shoes, I would question if I wanted him to be a part of our lives at all.
I wish you the best of luck with this.
R.
Hi J.
Thats mad.Your sister is disrespecting you.
My advise would be to be straight with her and tell her what your ex said and take it from there with her response.
Get the account number from her and have control of the money.
Good luck
B.
There are so many things here that demand attention, but I'll keep my suggestions/opinions to the basic question raised.
The Ex: Child support is just that - support for the child. Support includes but is not limited to food, clothing, medical care, dental care, day care, housing, utilities, and any other basic needs. Birthdays and Christmas' are not basic necessities so do not fall under the support definition. You'll be on your own for that. Whether or not he can afford or you want the support is irrelevant - that money is for the child. If you choose not to use it for his needs, then it is up to you to put it in a college fund or other trust account for when he is old enough to take control of his money. Depending on where you are, there are county child support enforcement units that will see that all monies due to your son are accounted for and review the current amount periodically to see if a cost of living raise is warranted. Use that system. It removes all doubt about the amount due and paid so there's never a need to discuss that aspect with the Ex.
Sister: It is none of her business. Tell her to stay out of the matter and do not allow yourself to disclose private matters such as child support, visitation, or other child/parent information. No matter how close you thought you were, she has chosen to side with your Ex and keeping a secret from you, the mother and her sister, has put a wedge between you until she can prove she's earned your trust again. There is no excuse for taking money for your child and lying about communication with your Ex. She has crossed the boundary line and needs to be held accountable. You should also put some distance between your child and your sister until she fully realizes that she is his aunt not his mother. Any reference to being his mom needs to stop. If she says it jokingly or not, it is to be corrected right there and then firmly. She needs clear boundaries again and she should notice they're not going to bend or allow her to take over what is not hers to take.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but I've been there and this works. I hope you find the settlement you're looking for.
Yuck. This situation makes my skin crawl. If I were in your situation I would first give my sister an earful. I would not be irritated that she took the money, but she kept all this from you, talking to the ex, taking the money. I believe in that sisterhood code (not exclusive to blood relatives--more like a womanhood code) that you don't date your best friend's exboyfriend, that you disclose all info, etc. I would be furious at being kept in the dark.
Furthermore I would alert my lawyer and possible judge (depending on your situation) that my exhusband had been giving child support to my sister rather than me. If you do not yet have a lawyer, I'd get one.
You absolutely have the right to be upset, but I would take action. Just having the right to be upset doesn't make the situation any better.
After reading your 'What Happened' I see more of the story. I still stand behind what I said above, but I would encourage you to back off from the husband. You have bent over backward for him so that he will have a relationship with his son. But the truth is, your life might be easier if he never called. Sending money is one thing. Your son is probably young now and you feel it is important to have a strong male role model in his life. But as he grows older he will likely have great teachers, a great coach, great friends that will all contribute to his being a strong and well balanced man. Besides, the more your son gets to know his father through a forced medium the more likely it will be that he will grow up and see exactly how he got shortchanged. He will grow to resent him, it is highly likely. Besides, you will probably eventually meet someone wonderful and remarry. Your next husband may be all the father your son needs. It happened to my friend! Now she is married to a wonderful man and her daughter doesn't even know that her 'dad' is not her biological dad.
Since you would want it from a "me" perspective; I guess I would be very greatful that my Ex was sending money to my son and therefore supportive him in some fashion. I then would go to my sister and ask her if she thought I was irresponsible with money and if it was a feeling they both shared. I would be open and not critical to their thoughts, beliefs and opinions. I then would question my sister and our relationship. I would tell her if she thought I was irresponsible and did not put money what she felt in appropiate spending then that is fine & I am happy she is helping my Ex support my son; but would question the lies. I would tell her that I am hurt, not because she was communicate with my ex or because she was buying my son items; but hurt because she did not tell me and therefore she was deceiving me. So I would get to the bottom of why this plan was worked out between them without my input and awarness. So I hope that helps.
I would simply just call up or talk to my sister asap and tell her that my ex told me that he gave her money for my son. And just say "I'm assuming that is what paid for the shopping trip?" ...and then I would just plainly ask "how long/when did you guys start talking? And why didn't you tell me yourself?"
That would basically be it- and I would just let the conversation go from there. Of course, I'd try my best not to sound angry or upset- it could come off as confrontational and intimidating. I'd want a clear and honest answer, so I'd try my best to be calm and understanding.
After I would talk to her, then I can make sense of the situation. Depending on her responses, I'd probably feel a little hurt, mad, betrayed, understanding or whatever...
I'm not really understanding...first of all your EX is a loser - period. Focus on your son and WHAT YOU DO FOR HIM now, not your Ex. What he does with his SON is in hands now and you can't control him. The court unfortunatley should be involved where child support is concerned. As for your sister...I don't know where to start. She's been lieing to you. That is WRONG, bottom line. She is not being respectful of you, that is wrong. At first I thought she was just helping you by having this "secret" but I'm going to have to say she shouldn't be involved anymore. If your Ex goes to her like that again, she NEEDS to be upfront and honest with you - NO SECRETS. Everyone needs to take a step back and think your the CHILD in this situation. I personally would say - F@#$ my EX and not rely on him or deal with him. I would distance myself from my sister and I would do EVERYTHING I COULD to get on my feet and take care of myself and my son - without ANYONE else intereferring. Eventually you could forgive your sister but right now IMO she is to involved in YOUR life and your child and she needs to back off. Take care of YOURSELF and YOUR CHILD! You can do it...don't let others manipulate you or do anything behind your back.
J.,
OUCH First I would talk to my sister, telling her blood is thicker than water and that her loyalty lies with me and not my ex. Then I would call an attorney or legal aid and start proceedings to get both current and back child support. Your ex made that baby with you, he is equally responsible for the expenses of raising him even if he doesn't want a relationship with him. Depending on how things went with my sister would determine if our relationship is going to change or not. Don't be too hard on her, she may just be doing it so that your son would get support from his father, but she should have been honest and told you what was going on from the start. Again blood is thicker than water. My sister and I don't speak anymore, I don't wish that on anyone.
Hugs,
T.
I am appalled. He sounds like a real piece of work. First of all, he doesn't see his son. Whether or not he gets along with you he should see his son. I hope he is making his support payments and the money he is sending your sister is somehow "extra". Perhaps your sister is fully aware of his lack of character and is just playing along with his little ruse in order to collect money for your son.....in any way shape or form. Perhaps he has sworn her to it and she just wants to help you. Look at that! He's even managed to come between you and your sister as well. What a divisive little so and so. How did you find out about the money? Either way, the whole thing makes me uneasy too.
All I can say is girl, just watch your back. I am so very sorry that you are going through all this. I know that family is family, but you can't be naive, especially when it comes to your son. Like if she says that stuff about being your son's mom anymore, if it were me I would check her. I would say something like "well, you are the best at being an aunt, but I am holding onto my mommy title." I allow no games when it comes to my kids or my man. I LOVE my MIL and one time I was in the kitchen spatting with my husband, you know a little playfully and little bit really...ANYWAY she came in and tried to say something and I checked her. I said something like "Hey there ______ this is my husband, and I can spat with him in my house if I want, don't worry 'bout all this!" I said it in a joking way, but also let it be known, that my man, my house, butt out!!!;) I do tend to get a little fly at times, but I always say things with a twinkle in my eye and let the person know that the buck stops with me but I still totally love them. The best thing you can do to preserve the relationship with your sis is to draw boundaries. Don't worry about if she and your ex talk, I hope they don't because...ew...but you can't let anyone have power over you like that and you can't control people. It has nothing to do with you or your son if she and he talk, again...ew.... As far as the support goes, talk to a lawyer or someone who has been there and find out what to do to garnish his wages etc. You didn't make this child alone and he has a responsibility to help raise him. If you sis tries to bring up the whole thing again, I would cut her off at the knees. Tell her you have made your peace with things and are working it all out as you see fit and by the way how would she like to go have coffee;) Close that little part of your life to her, for your relationship's, and your son's sake. Just my honest thoughts girl, hang in there!!!
I would ask my sister why she never told me about her and my ex communicating and about the money he has been sending her instead of you. It sounds to me that they (your ex and your sister) don't trust you with any money sent to you for your son. I would be soooooo very angry at him but more angry at my sister for being dishonest and being a backstabber. You are her blood, not him. Unless she 'likes' your ex! Your sister is a mean, pathetic person and a loser of a sister for helping your ex and siding with him intstead of you! And I'm assuming she knows your ex does not visit your son? She's a witch!!
I would question why he is sending the $ to someone other than you. That may touch on very personal territory. If there is a legitimate reason why he is not sending it to you, then it's fine sending it to her. However, your sister should tell you...unless your ex sent her the $ on behalf of you son & said "do not tell your sister about this" for some reason. There are a couple of scenarios. 1) your sister wants to seem like the generous one & take credit, which is wrong. 2) your ex gave certain conditions w/ the $ & your sister was put in an awkward position. I personally would ask my sister about it. Say "Hey 'my ex' said he sent you $ to open an acct. for my son. Is this true?" Maybe she just doesn't want to bring it up for some reason. Give her the benefit of the doubt & ask her, but don't get on the offensive, just ask nicely. Good luck!
Hi,
I know you have already received so many replies and that I may just be repeating myself, but...
It sounds a lot like your sister wants to live your life. She wants your man (EX) and jokingly claims to be your son's mother. I think you really need to get some distance from her because she is not an honest individual.
I know it might surprise you but sisters are not always the friend in the situation. In your case your sister may be the cause of all your troubles.
Even if she has not been with your ex she sure has tried. Lying about you hanging up on him proves that she is trying to make you look bad to him, and may be even putting more ideas in his head about you and your child.
Try not to talk or see her for a while. I believe even though she denies it she is still in contact with your ex. The less information she has about you, the more inclined your ex will be to contact you.
Maybe you are not interested in a relationship with him, but you would like your son to have one with his father. And believe me children do need both their parents in their life, even if the relationship is a more distant one.
As far as your ex is concerned I would also make it clear to him that you are not your sister and that if he needs to talk to you, he shouldn't be getting other people involved. This whole situation seems like a bigger mess than you care to explain.
Best of luck to you and your son <3
your sister is no good! she is your sister first. she wasn't in a relationship with him so why is 1. she talking with him behind your back and not telling you 2. giving her the money to give you! she is dirty as hell! and it would have me to believe that they are messing around behind your back also. now if he really gave her that money for his son then she should have told you like look" he says he wants me to open up this account for the baby but when he gives it to me I'm going to put it in your hand". but before that she should have first told you when he contacted her! and then she would have told him if you have something for my nephew then you need to talk to my sister about it not me! and what siganls was she giving off to him to make him even feel comfortable enough to approach her like that. I think they are up to something and i would let them now! and i would come at her first because she is supposed to be your sister why would she do you and her nephew like that. you said be honest and i was. I wish you the best of luck in this situation
hummm well I would find it odd that my sister was talking to him and did not tell me, and odd that she did not tell me that the shopping trip was from my ex. I might not really care though bc he SHOULD give me $ and I might say about damn time and I would use the money. However since I dont know the whole story bc it is not me LOL maybe your sister did not tell you (and your ex did not want you to know) bc you have a bad history and he thought maybe you would tell him to go to *^% and not take the money so maybe they thought this would be better bc you would not try to be angry/independant/I dont need your money bc you never gave it to me before and they thought you would jsut use it if you did not know?
Well, sounds like you are going to have to talk to your sister at some point anyway. But in the conversation put the concern for your child first. That you are concerned about the welfare and well being of your child. Let her explain. "Thank you for your generousity the other day but ex says..." Maybe ask why does dad not want to know the presents are coming from him? That as adults we need to be straightforward, especially so that your child knows adults can be trusted to be honest.
PS. If your sister wants to have a relationship with your ex, she is an adult and there is nothing to be done, no matter how you feel - and maybe you had best separate any dealings or discussions about child support from your sister and your relationship and ask her to also. Woody Allen made a movie about the tangled issues that can result..."Hannah and Her Sisters" . I am sorry about your stress.
Hi J.,
It is hard enough and stressful to be a single parent but to add this sibling problem to the list is overwhelming. If the question is can you trust your sister, the answer is no. There are no excuses big enough to fill the divide between trustworthy and dishonesty. I know it is difficult to wrap ones mind around this and certainly heartbreaking. As you think about other situations and comments the pieces will fit together drawing this conclusion.
You decision not to marry your ex sounds like a good one. He not only rejects his child, but threw your sister under the bus. He is using her to get you jealous and he is very selfish, mean and manipulative. Perhaps it is better that your child does not grow up with this cheap, selfish manipulative man's influence. When you are ready find another man that would be loving , generous and honest. As hard as this sounds, step away from this toxic situation. Nothing said will ever really satisfy you.
Understand who your sister is and keep her around but not in the same capacity as you had before. She cannot be trusted and obviously choose your ex over you. One time is too much and deep inside you know this is true. Rally your friends and less toxic people in your life. This single motherhood gig is hard enough.
I wish you the best,
Deb
I agree with Sunflower - if my sister did that to me I'd be PISSED. It might possibly ruin our relationship. I would feel like she was taking his side (so to speak) and totally lying to my face and making me look like a fool.
Ok, as you originally asked, I will picture myself in your situation:
The first thing I would do is to remove myself from the drama. My goal in life is definitely not to make it a soap opera... and that's what this situation sounds like.
As for the child support: I would get a lawyer and go the legal route. There is nothing else to it. Having a legal order set up might actually improve your relationship with your ex, since there is no more need to discuss it. A judge spells out his responsibilities on paper and if he doesn't pay up, DSHS will go after him for it and it won't be on you.
Sounds like the EX and the sis have something going on. Now you will have to ask yourself if you want to be right (and understandably upset), or if you want to have a relationship with her and be happy. Maybe you are not emotionally removed enough from your Ex that you can get over him having something going on with your sis? In that case you might distance yourself from her. Maybe they are just friends? And maybe even that is too much for you to handle?
If you can I would look into some counseling for yourself and ideally your Ex, so you can make steps towards co-parenting. No matter what you do, or who either of you ends up with - this guy will always be your childs father, and it is in your childs interest that you overcome the drama and have a civil relationship with him.
Good luck.
hi J., well i'll be honest my sister's in the same situation w/ her ex husband for about 3 yrs now and she won't take him to court. what you have to do is take him to court and have the judge schedual his monthly or weekly payments to you.
your sister i'm sure has her heart in the right place ands doesn't want to upset u by tellin you it was his money, because maybe you'll decline it.
take the bastard to court and save yourself a lot of grief, or continue the way u are goin and suffer. good luck!!
I JUST SAW YOUR "SO WHAT HAPPENED" POST............
now, i'll say, congrats on takin him to court!! and just sit w/ your sister and have a long talk and tell her what u find acceptable and not. tell her you want to trust her completely and you want her to have no communications w/ your ex. if she loves u enough, which i think she does, she will listen. you don't need any drama in your life. it also sounds like you have feelings for your ex, which sounds like a loser. you need to seek some therapy and sort your feelings out. good luck!
The sister aspect of this is SUCH a mess that I don't know what to say other than leveling with her that she can have contact with him or contact with you. Tell her that you are extremely hurt by her secretive behavior.
Now - what I really want to say is in regards to HIM! Any man who has to be forced to see his own son, will not send child support, is taking out his frustrations with you on his child AND has ever said he doesn't want to " deal" with both you and his son DOES NOT deserve to have a relationship with your boy! I do NOT believe everyone needs a relationship with a biological parent. When a biological parent is a LOSER like that, your son is better off without him in his life. Do you have your father, your brother, a good, trustworthy male friend that can serve as a male role model for your son? Any of those is better than him spending his life with the inconsistent and forced, unwilling contact with a man like this!
I would be more than angry that my sister is communicating with my ex. I do not like to sit back and watch the situation - I like to do something about it. First of call, please find yourself a recommended child support attorney. Do research, ask around. I would then get down to the bottom of things - This situation sounds suspect. Several years ago while I attended college in San Antonio, I found out that my younger sister had a flin g with an ex boyfriend that I had before I left for school. I now keep communication with her to a very minimun. Sometimes, its people closest to you (family) that are the true sleaze bags.
If this was coming from me...
I would first let the EX know that child support is in the courts hands now and there is no reason to bring it up again unless you are in court. (I told my Ex that if he brought up child support I didn't want to talk to him and I haven't heard from him in 2 years now. He is mad because I took it to court.)The courts will come up with an amount based on his income that is fair and weather he can afford if or not is not your problem. Your sister needs to stay out of anything that has to do with money.
Then I would ask my sister what she think it will do to YOUR son when he finds out that his Auntie has been talking to HIS father this whole time but not to him. Everyone seems so worried about the child support issue, but what happens when your son starts to think that having a baby and then abandoning the baby is ok because he "didn't want to deal with it" anymore because the people that he loves are still talking to his father. If I found out my Aunt or someone in my family was talking to my father that wanted nothing to do with me I would be so mad. Kids know so much more than parents think and if this keeps up then he will probably find out.
Your sister lied to you and that is not ok. She has no say as to where any money for your child should go. If she keeps it up behind your back with the EX than at some point you are going to have to choose between your sister and your son. As far as your EX being inconsistent with visitation, I would just keep doing what you are doing and eventually your son will see your EX for the person he really is and then your son will be able to make the decision on his own about his father. I am a big believer that child support and visitation are two separate issues and they should be dealt with separately.
Wow. I sense a very insecure woman in your post. Perhaps you may be the kind who always looks too deep into situations, so therefore, people feel they can't come to you because when they do, it's drama city. that's just the sense I get from you in your post.
