Hello,
Some background: My husband and I have our share of problems, but recently after a near separation (which I still consider) he has been trying to show me that he really does want to make things work and he doesn't want to split. I am still on the fence but I am calling this time a 'trial period.' I'm not one for ultimatums, but that is pretty much what this is in my perspective. If he doesn't change, we are going to separate and we can take it from there. It is hard because we do love each other very much, regardless of our problems. Unfortunately you need more than love to make a happy marriage! I will say that the last month has been the nicest time we've had in a long time. I am cautiously hopeful.
One of my big problems with him is that, like many guys, talking out a conflict is not his great strength. After a few years I sort of gave up. This is at the heart of my current post because I will be forced to confront him about this. So there is like a role reversal with us: He loves to shop and buy nice clothes, jewelry, etc, and while I like these things I don't see it as a priority and only enjoy shopping once in a while. Also, I work part-time and he makes a little more than me, so I usually just make enough to get by.
Another one of the reasons I was ready to leave him was because he went through this phase where he was telling me he didn't have enough money for expenses and either paying me late, shorting me, or not paying at all, and meanwhile he was out spending his money as if he had no obligations. I realized one day that I could check his bank account on line and that is when the truth started coming out. He had piles and piles of new, expensive clothes, gifts for family members, but then he wouldn't give me anything for groceries, or take weeks to pay his half of the utilities. Stuff like that. Yes, I tried talking to him even putting my foot down, but this was during a time when it was hard to have a conversation with him about anything. He'd just get angry or shut down. That's just one example of why I was ready to send him packing, even though I love him and he's a good man, and in some ways a good father to our son.
...This is a long one! I think it partly was from the fact that he was so broke for so long, then started doing a better at his job, he went a little crazy. I think he also had a touch of spending addiction. I thought that in the past month he had gotten control of himself. He has been paying his share of the bills and whatnot and I haven't had to beg or argue about it. So today I went online to check on his bank account, mostly to see if he was saving a penny like he claims he wants to do so badly. He does have a little money saved. What I am shocked to see, however, is that he spent $117 the other day at a clothing store! And another small sum at a jewelry store. Like he needs more jewelry? He has a ton.
The part that really upsets me as that I was aware that he was going to this store to return a pair of jeans I bought him for Xmas. They were expensive and it turned out he already had the same ones (probably has every pair they ever made). The idea was to do an exchange. Later that day he said that he didn't see any jeans he wanted, or anything else in the store, so he is waiting until later to do the exchange. I was kind of surprised. He had a whole story about it. Never in that story did he tell me that he proceeded to spend $117 anyway. And, he just lied about not seeing anything he liked. I also saw a new silver ring the other day and asked where it was from, and he lied and said he's had it for a long time. So basically ladies, he just lies and lies.
I don't have any suspicion of him lying about women or anything like that, but he seems to have gotten very comfortable omitting facts or lying about things that he knows I will give him grief about. He claims it is not the same thing as cheating. To me it is the same, on a lesser level, but it starts to make me doubt him in everything. Any advice on how hard I should be on him about this recent lying? Do you think it is pointless trying to get him to change? Any ideas on how to deal with him? Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time to share. Sounds like a joint account and a budget is in order! When we first met he didn't have a bank account (he is not a native to this country) and so we just used mine for a while until about a year later when he was able to open his own account. That was around the same time he was so broke that there wasn't enough money to open a joint account with!! He would just give me his cash tips (he works in a restaurant) and paycheck. At that time we didn't have too many fights about spending except that sometimes I would get frustrated at how poor we were, but I knew that if we supported each other, he'd get promoted as he's very talented.
To those of you who share finances completely, I think that is great but it is not for me, even if circumstances were different I like to have my own account.
More background: we met 4 years ago, fell in love, and unexpectedly got pregnant 3 months later. We had gotten engaged very early on but was supposed to be a long term engagement. We decided to do the best we could with our situation and considering we didn't know each other very well when we had our son. I was certainly not about to hand over all my money to him until I got to know him better.
Casey C - When I said "in some ways he's a good father to our son" I was trying to oversimplify a complicated opinion that in some ways, he is the most incredible father I could ever ask for for my son, and in other ways, not so much.
One&Done - Yes, in that way he is like a chick! He also loves Zumba. Be is also Mr. Machoman. In some ways the self-primping thing is cultural. From what I've noticed, Latin men spend more time on their appearance than American guys.
Gamma & Talktotrees - thanks I really like your responses!
Shane B - What I meant by "paying me" is that during this time, most often I would pay the bill myself because it was late and then would be waiting for him to pay me back. I hear you, this has not been a good situation and partly why I posted because it needs to change.
And yes, Mamas, sometimes I do feel more like roommates. As I started saying in my post, our marriage has been struggling for some time. I do hope that we can work things out and changing our financial system is one of the big steps.
I read somewhere that the top 2 reasons for divorce are problems with money and communication (lack of). It sounds like you have two rolled into one. It sounds like you're not willing to tolerate the lying--and you shouldn't!
He sounds like he is addicted to shopping. It's a real problem that people have. He needs therapy to help find better ways to cope with his stress.
Next you guys need a better system. Make a budget and give each of you a cash budget for spending on fun stuff. Do not use ATM or Debit cards at all. Get cash weekly from the bank for groceries and stuff too. This is how we do it.
He's lying because he is tired of having to account to you for every penny he spends. And he is spending way too many of them. He may be glad if you divorce, he can spend his money how he wants. SO going into this discussion be aware that it could be the end moment of your marriage.
I think that if you are ready to take the step then present it like this:
"Honey, I know you are spending money I told you not to. I understand you don't know how to manage money and can't be trusted. Even though you are paying more bills now and everything is up to date I want control of the accounts and I will give you $XXX per pay period for your spending. You never have to tell me where a penny of it goes, you can spend it on bubble gum and coffee 10 times per day and you still won't have to tell me where it went.
I expect you to buy your own clothing and jewelry.... with this money, these are your personal choices though. If you don't want to buy your clothes out if this spending money then you need to know those items will not be part of the household budget anymore. If you spend $XXX on clothes every time it is your choice. This will free you from all concern about the household budget or any bill paying.
You can have an account in your name only and I will not have the passwords, I will not have access to these accounts for any reason. My name will not be associated with it in any way. This way you can have a debit card and manage the account however you see fit."
He will either say okay and be glad to not have the responsibility or he will be pissed off and leave. Either way, you get control of your own money and can spend it how you want.
My husband used to, and then I threatened to divorce him, took over all of the bookkeeping and bill-paying, and he has seen the error of his ways. And yes, it is the same as cheating, I know what both feel like, and the feeling of betrayal is pretty similar. For him to belittle your concerns and feelings about this is a red flag to me. You can't change someone who doesn't want to change. We actually fought for YEARS about this issue before my threat, and by then he just couldn't hide it anymore. He's told me that releasing the financial responsibility to me was actually like a weight off of his shoulders. Lying in any form is not something I tolerate in a relationship of ANY kind. I wouldn't tolerate it if my friend was lying to me so much, why would I let my husband off the hook? Good luck, the only thing I can suggest is counseling, if he refuses to go, that's another red flag.
You guys sound like roommates....and your husband is self-indulged. Does he ever buy you any surprise jewelery or presents or is it all for him. Tell you the truth....I feel alittle suspicious about him....is he dressing to impress someone other than you. A married man that cares so much about his apperance.....something is amiss here. Give it some good thought. If he can lie about one thing...he will lie about another. Don't let the wool be pulled over your eyes. And can you explain..."and in some ways he's a good father to your son". If you feel he is losing interest in your family...that is a sure tell hint....something else is going on....not just a shopaholic!!!
Hon, I am very sorry to say this but from what I am reading he is not altogether on making this work. Something else is going on.
And in our house, he works and I have complete control of all finances. He couldn't be bothered. I give him an allowance to buy gas on a debit card under my name. I am a SAHM. Everything we do is joint.
First you are married and you handle money seperately??????????? I am not even married and we handle our money jointly! Now, I am a SAHM per his request but even when I was working and we lived together! We have a joint account, all the money goes in there, weekly a transfer is made (in equal amts) to our own accounts - this is where OUR spending money comes from. The JOINT account is for bill payments and our savings account - the card for this account is in my wallet (since I buy the groceries and pay bills) and the checks as well. He has access to it and can go to the bank if needed to get money out. However HE HAS HIS OWN account where he pays for his own food, gas, toys etc. I have the same. We do NOT have access to each other's and he also has a saving's account linked to his, I should do this too (hangs head). We all have our own money and the houshold money - it sounds like you two need financial counciling AND a new bank account set up. I would suggest that you find help.
No...however, we each have our own separate accounts. We have a joint in which all our bills, food, gas, etc are paid. We each have a certain amount that goes into our personal accounts. That money is our to spend as we want. If we think something we purchased may be perceived as coming out of the joint account when it should not have we will up front say "didn't use the joint account".
I don't see it as the same as cheating (but I respect your feelings on it). His lying is going to make you doubt everything he says. You are going to have to talk to him about...don't give him grief or he's just going to keep status quo. Give him a chance to tell you why.
You are not going to be able to change him...you can only change you. He can only change himself.
Are you sure he is buying theses things for himself and not other women.
Then get a finanial person to help you seems like you need to cut charge cards and you take control of all finances he needs help then you can work on your marriage good luck
Fixing the finance situation is easy. Each of you have your own bank accounts but you pay the bills out of your account. His share of the bills should be direct deposited in your account every pay day. This way he has no access to the money and doesn't have any choice but to give you his share. It will be taken from his paycheck before he even gets it.
But you have a bigger problem. His lying! That has to be addressed. And NOW! If he is lying about one thing he could very well either be lying about other things already or soon will be. Both of you need to sit down and discuss it or go to a marriage counselor. And NOW!
I wish you luck because it really sounds like your marriage is on the rocks and may not be savable unless you get this figured out and repaired.
Hmmm. I know plenty of women who lie to their husbands about spending and think nothing of it.
"This dress isn't new, I've had it a long time, I just never wore it before."
One thing that stood out for me in your post was where you said, "he was paying me late, shorting me, or not paying at all."
What do you mean by "paying you?"
It sounds to me like you live more like room mates than husband and wife. But, he's supposed to pay his half of the bills, utilities, etc but also report to you whatever else he spends money on. Or saves or not.
It's just my opinion, but I don't see how a marriage can be successful dealing with finances in this manner.
Open a Joint checking account and you hold the credit cards and checkbook. Go with a realistic household budget. He needs spending money each week to buy his lunch or a beverage to go with his sack lunch, transportation, etc. Consider couponing? Bank the savings.
A have to say that a joint bank account is a terrible idea, IMO. If he's a spend a holic, it just means he'll spend the money you earn, too. You could probably use some joint financial counselling.
My husband and I also have separate finances. We've had this scenario for our entire marriage, 21 years. We have very different ways of handling money and joint finances would likely be a disaster. Rather than chipping in half and half on things, I would suggest that you divide up the expenses, based on income. If he makes 2/3 of the income, then he should get 2/3 of the bills/expenses based on monetary amount. Whatever bills you pay should be in your name and whatever bills he pays should be in his name, so if he is late, he is not messing up your credit.
A bigger issue is the fact that he lies. A marriage cannot be based on dishonesty. He is not fully committed to building a life with you if he cannot be honest about his lifestyle. If he'd rather have clothes and jewelry than pay the bills, he is not a responsible person and you have to ask yourself whether you want this man in your life. You may not be worried about other women, but clearly he has no problem lying to you about something he thinks you would give him a hard time about. Rather than working through issues together, he simply does what he wants and lies. This isn't a husband that I would want.
This is one long post....
So, to answer your direct question:
Does your husband lie about spending?
My EX husband lied about spending ALL the time...that IS the reason he is my ex....I decided after only a couple years of his financial irresponsibility and lack of financial intimacy...I would never trust him. With trust, there was nothing for me.
It sounds like your best bet here is some kind of marriage counseling. I say this mainly because of the lying. Even if he is lying because he wants to avoid a confrontation it creates a trust issue between you. (My husband is a bit like that --he hates confrontations and will sometimes avoid talking about something because he doesn't want to fight though this has gotten better over the years). If not for the trust issue you might be able to deal with the money issues by reading a book on money management together or go to a class about it. If he came from another country he may not know how things work here, especially about credit reports and how being responsible or irresponsible with money now can have long term consequences. I have had training to do marriage and family counseling and money is probably one of the top 3 issues couples have (the others are sex and communication skills, different parenting styles is also a biggie for some people). It is hard to be both organized and disciplined about money. Organized you can get out of a book or work out a budget on your own. Discipline can be harder (he sounds like an impulsive shopper--I struggle with this too). One thing some friends did was set aside a small amount per paycheck they could spend on whatever they wanted with no arguments from the other person. Another idea you could try is to set the timer for 10 or 15 minutes and try to talk about money (or any other issue) and try to talk for a short time without either of you getting angry or raising your voice. If tempers flare take a break and try again later. You may not resolve that much in 10 minutes but being able to talk calmly might get you guys past the feeling "we can't talk about money without fighting." On good took in improving communication is using "I statements" For example you might say "I feel frustrated when the bills aren't paid on time."
Anyway, I'm not sure if anything here will help but good luck working things out.
I skimmed some of the other answers and I don't think it is a good idea to have a joint bank account right now or until you get to a better agreement on finances.
Sorry but in this situation, I think "Sounds like a joint account and a budget is in order!" is a huge mistake-in-progress.. unless the joint idea is totally restricted so he specifically cannot withdraw/spend more than x per month without it affecting YOUR withdrawal spending limit for the household). Just my opinion (I know some would disagree which is why they recommended it)
Even then, a restriction makes it so at some point he's going to feel like he isn't being "given enough allowance" (all children seem to feel this way...) If he has addictive behavior like it sounds, he may try even worse ways to acquire money..such as stealing it from you directly, selling things, etc.
I know for a lot of people a joint account may seem logical...it SHOULD make sense in a marriage (traditionally, anyway), but there are certain kinds of people that you simply cannot do this with as merely an "agreement" between husband and wife.
With a person who cannot control their spending or is addicted (or acts like it) to anything, if you have a joint account with your money in it as well, they can spend not only their own money, but yours as well.
I'd bet in the current stages of your relationship, that he'd be delighted to have joint access to both your pay and his, while making you think it would be easier for you to get the household money your family needs. (assuming there isn't some restriction by the bank)
I don't mean he would be maliciously acting like this..he probably does not mean to hurt you at all. It sounds more like he has a problem where he just doesn't think of how it will affect anyone at the time, or justifies it to himself as he's buying some new piece of jewelry. (I've done it myself - I "deserve a reward" etc.)
Really, it is just as likely you would go to the bank, to your joint account, to get bill money, or write a check, only to find nothing there and your checks bouncing. BECAUSE it is JOINT and he has a problem with money!
Joint might work only if it is restricted spending per person somehow enforced by the bank itself. So you can always get groceries, but he can only withdraw a limited amount for buying himself presents. Unless he finds his "allowance" isn't enough. The whole concept of an "allowance" personally doesn't even sit well with me because I associate that with something children get, not a husband. Sometimes as adults we simply do not have enough left after paying all the bills to give ourselves an allowance, but he would still expect one in that circumstance I think...
Another thing that can happen (this happened to me) is your spouse who has some sort of addiction or spending problem can (and mine did) can defraud your bank account. Because it is in both your names, you are also responsible. Happens when his money runs out and he can't think of how to get more but feels like he really really must buy something right away.
If he has no money and deposits an empty envelope into an ATM, or steals one of your checks and writes it to himself (this is possible to do here..might be different in other locations?), it will also look like YOU did it (to a bank).
Don't assume it won't happen if he lies regularly to you. Even if you don't have a joint account, don't give the spouse your PIN number or anything else sensitive. Nobody wants to say "don't trust your hubby" because marriage is supposed to be built on trust, and nobody wants to say "end your marriage" just like that.
But you can work on your marriage, even if you do end up separating, WITHOUT taking that level of chance, or trusting in agreements with him over the very thing that caused the trouble in the first place.
This does happen often..people end up in debt after trusting too much in an attempt to save a marriage. If its savable, I don't believe anymore that this is the way to save it.
I understand the ladies who think that trust is the best thing for saving a marriage because really it should work like that I think, but you already trusted him and he is the one acting more like a child than a husband.
Right now I don't think you should trust him with money in any way, and I don't believe you feel you should either. I think he needs to earn that trust back himself by not buying baubles when the kids need food and clothes.
Just loving someone and wanting the marriage to work doesn't mean you should take such risks to prove you want it to work when he isn't yet doing so himself and seems unwilling. Loving someone doesn't seem like it should mean sacrificing yourself and your family's well-being so the other person can decorate themselves.
He may be a nice guy but to have a family and run a household takes financial responsibility and honesty both ways..he really needs to learn this skill. Even if it takes separating so he HAS to gain even a bit more understanding.
My opinion about your situation as you described it would not be to ever ever get anything in both your names until he became more responsible (prove it for a long time!).
I almost want to say that a separation might actually benefit this (unpopular as that may be)..if he had to move out and support his basic needs, maybe he would gain some skill in the area. ? (I don't know..sounds negative but ..what reason right now has he to spend less money on himself and learn to help pay family expenses?)
I don't think this will change as it is and would probably get worse with any sort of financial pooling too..where you could get in trouble due to his actions (either by being left with nothing for what your family needs, or bank or credit problems, etc.)
By he hasn't "paid you" I don't know why it was hard for anyone to understand what you meant. It means that you are paying and paying and paying bills, rent, food, every thing necessary while he says he will "get it next time" and never does. If you're using credit cards to pay for groceries as a last resort, while he buys a new outfit and says he will "pay the next bill", well...
I know what this is like so immediately knew what this meant.
For me, the electricity could get cut off and he'd have money, but it wouldn't get paid (or turned back on) until I came up with it on my own. I felt our whole family was about to collapse and lose everything (and we were evicted for this problem many times), yet have always made a decent income..it was peculiar to be able to say I made x per month, but never have two cents to rub together. You can't figure out where your money went when you didn't buy anything.
When we separated, suddenly I could leave change on the table, I didn't have to sleep with my purse beside me, I didn't have to check to make sure my cards were still in my wallet, and me and the children suddenly did not have trouble meeting house or bill payments..My husband went so far as stealing from my purse you see. If he spent all of his, that was next.
A joint account would have been financial suicide so I feel very strongly about this. And still that didn't stop him from stealing my checks and writing them to himself and other such acts.
To cooperate, the thing is BOTH people have to want to do it, in my opinion, even if you're MARRIED..but I'm sorry some men (and women I'm sure too), do not want to cooperate.
They like not having to worry about paying bills because someone else will do it for them like a mummy would.
I'm sure he enjoys the fact he gets free room and board and a family but all the fine clothes and jewelry too. Why would he want to change it under the existing circumstance?
Giving him even more potential access to money if it is a joint account with only some kind of agreement between you two..seems just a bad idea on so many levels to me just based on the experience of trying things like this with a person who has serious problems handling money. I would expect with this situation that even if a restriction were enforced by the bank, he might find other ways to get money (because mine did by stealing from my purse or selling things we owned behind my back)
Some people who have not learned financial skill at all yet tend to treat their spouse as if they were their new mother (or father). You take care of him and the children, and he takes care of his own fun, and he is happy, so can't understand what your problem is lol
Like some people said, I agree it usually indicates an addiction of some kind. When I read your post, I thought your hubby sounds like he is addicted to the good feeling you get when you buy yourself something nice or trying to present an appearance of "status". To me it DOESN’T at all sound like he is cheating on you..he probably does love you a lot, but has a very bad habit that he enjoys (and doesn't want to change because he gets the best of both worlds the way it is already!)
So it FEELS like cheating definitely..I said this same thing to my husband (that it feels as bad as being cheated on) and he didn't believe me, but it does.
I mean I could be wrong too but the way you described your situation sounded dreadfully familiar to me and I strongly disagree with the "joint everything" idea that works so well in a give-and-take marriage already based on mutual trust.
It hasn't been give-and-take and I expect a joint account would result in more taking from you! To change this situation, HE has to have motivation to WANT to change the bad habit I think?
Personally I don’t know of any way to do this except for separation, which might work (he might over time come to learn financial responsibility) but also might result in a permanent split.
Its great that you still love him, but the fact you're considering separation over this issue right now means to me that you should be totally careful with money..assume that you'll have to pay for everything yourself at this point and can't afford to risk it being lost by him having even more access. I wouldn’t trust him with money at all, because it is ALREADY hurting you to do so. Extending MORE trust, pooling your incomes, etc...sounds like a very bad idea to me..it sounds more like a solution for a marriage with “some” confusion in financial roles..these things don’t work with serious financial problems or addictions!
I doubt he'll want to separate since it would mean he'd have to get off the gravy train and start figuring out how to pay his own bills..
I don't know but it might even help (he might have to learn to budget for needs, not just the latest bling?)
I really believe you should be on the safe side though with everything..for you and your son. If you don't make all your money "joint", and he pulls a fast one again, its not near as bad as when he does with your paycheck as well, or damages your credit, bank account, etc. What happens if you don’t have an income one day? If you’re sick or off work for any reason? Your husband also needs to know how to take care of things and manage money, same as you. He will not ever be capable of even taking care of himself (except his grooming) if he never has to or is on an “allowance” like one would give a teen for doing chores. He’s probably a loving wonderful person..its just this is too much.
Just from my own experiences with the same thing (except it wasn't for baubles but a gambling problem causing all the trouble).
Well, perhaps in some way or another his not necessarily lying, maybe in some way his actually shielding you from atrocious behavior. Nevertheless I under the impression that, you both need counseling. His expenduchure has gotten way out of control. Please don't wait for him to change we are as humans are incapable of change, until, perhaps it's too late.
Oh man this definitely hits close to home, and my first impulse is to yell "RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" When I got married for the first time, my husband and I had met through mutual friends, got engaged, moved in together, got married, and found out we were expecting all in 8 months. That was hardly enough time to truly get to know each other. After I was 2 1/2 months pregnant, the fact that he kept spending 'his' money (it was supposed to be OURS, seeing as how we were married, but since he was the only one working at the time, he didn't see how it was mine as well... >.<) on things he'd never tell me about worried me. A LOT. He couldn't walk into ANY store without coming out with a ton of bags and lots of useless things. And that was just what he'd do in front of me. So many different times a hundred dollars to 300+ would be missing from our account, and he'd either claim to have no idea where it went, or he'd admit that he 'lent it to a friend'. Either way, we ended up not having enough for rent and we had to move in with my parents. Long story short..ish... it turns out he was actually spending that money on drugs. That ended up ruining our relationship because he couldn't pick his family over the drugs. Whether your husband is addicted to drugs, or just overspending the family's money, LYING IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If he's lying about that, he has no problem not telling you the truth. You cannot trust anything a liar tells you, and you do not want to be married to someone that you can't trust! ESPECIALLY when there is a child involved!!!! I would be so very cautious if I were you- if his morals allow him to lie to you and have no problem with it, he may be able to talk himself into not having a conscience, and therefore may do worse things than just lying and reasoning it in his own head. He's shown character weakness, so you know who he really is. There may be a lot of things you like about him, but if that's one of the 'cons', it's too huge to ignore. I suggest counseling, and if that doesn't immediately improve the situation, get yourself out. That can be so detrimental to you and your child.
Wow...he sounds like a chick.
You guys need a budget. And start getting a cash allowance each per week. Easy peasy.
