Alternate to Time Out...

If she has a favorite toy, put the toy in time out, preferablely somewhere that she can see it but can't reach it. We do this with one of my kids - he has a great imagination and isn't upset in the least about being put in his room on his bed. But if we take his Nala (stuffed lion he's attached to) and put her on the fireplace mantle for time out, he gets the point!

do you spend time with her TEACHING her what you WANT her to do? Or do you just let her behave however she behaves, punish her and then let her try and figure out how to behave next time all on her own?

Let's take the parking lot. Before you get out of the car.... have her tell you what behavior is expected. "I hold mommy's hand all the way to inside", or "I walk right beside mommy".
I found that if I engaged my daughter, her behavior was better. So we did a lot of games..... "as we walk together from the car into the store... can you spot any yellow cars?" or "let's count the number of trucks we see.... point them out to me as we walk together nicely"
That gives her instruction AND keeps her busy and engaged with you.

What is her currency?

For our daughter it was books.

If she did not behave as expected we could easily tell her, "we will not read books tonight" Or, "we will not continue with (whatever book we were in the middle of)".. , if you do not pick up your toys, right now.

I do agree the things you describe as behavioral problems can be nipped before they happen by you stating the expected behaviors before you go to the park, the store, parking lot, dinner.. whatever.

As she gets older, ask HER to tell you what is the behavior tonight at dinner? She will then respond with the rules you have been telling her all of this time.

Store behaviors.. Hands to ourselves, we take out own snacks, we do not buy snacks and Inside voices.. If we misbehave we will leave and you will not get to come back the next time.

Movies, we eat before we go, we go to the potty before the movie, no talking, stay in our seats. If you cannot behave, it will be a long, long time before we can ever go back.

Park, we take our own snacks, we take turns, we stay where we can see each other at all times, we share the playground. If we throw fit, we will leave. And we will not return again until we can remember these rules.

Dinner, we sit in the chair, we use quiet voices, we eat without complaining. If we want more, we ask politely. When we are through we may stay in the chair or we can ask for permission to go away from the table. No ugly comments about the food, we say please thank you or no thank you. If we do not like something we do not make ugly faces or say anything mean.

And our daughter knew we were serious, because we really did leave, we did not return or she was not allowed again for a long, long time.

We also thanked her and noticed good behaviors way more than her poor behaviors.

We as adults also admitted our frustrations, anger and being tired hungry excited or whatever with our own words, so she could learn to verbalize hers.

Yes, it takes effort, planning and time, but your daughters success is worth it..

what's wrong with sitting and chilling out?
she doesn't need to be screaming and angry for the time-out to be effective.
sounds to me as if other than constantly switching up the location, you're doing everything right. if she's only 3 and generally doesn't need a lot of punishment, responds well to redirection, and has natural consequences whenever possible, i think you're already producing a great kid.
it's just hard to tell when they're 3<G>.
khairete
S.

I have to say...I agree completely with laurie a!

Tell them before hand what you expect...make the consequences clear, and be willing to follow through...and 'catch them being good'!!!

My youngest are 16 now...and I still say 'Parking Lot Rules' out loud when we pull into a store...lol

(that was 'code' for holding hands and keeping an eye out for cars)

We all laugh because it has been a HARD habit to break.

It worked though!! :)

Instead of putting her in time out, put something she likes in time out. That seemed to work better for us.

We also tried lengthening them. She had to stay in time out until she could say she was sorry for what she did wrong and mean it. She would try saying sorry several times but we knew she didn't mean it. It was just a ruse to get out of it. She would also try to sit there and be calm so she could show that it didn't affect her. So we would leave her there until she was ready to confront what she did. Sometimes time out took 30 minutes, but the result was a behavior change, which is the point, right?

Sounds like you are doing a good job. I think she's just not associating the punishment to the crime. keep on it. Most 3 year olds don't really get punishment yet. They just don't have the abstract processing ability yet. They're still working on concrete ideas.

Take a favorite toy away, for a certain amount of time.

Exactly what Suz T said. Time outs aren't meant to be horrible, crying, hour long sessions. They're meant as a time to sit or stand... and chill out, so that when the child comes back they aren't doing whatever behavior they earned the time out for. I allow a book or small toy in time out now (my girls are 6) because generally I'm not trying to punish them, I'm trying to move them away from the time/space that caused them to melt down, pinch their sister, yell, or whatever.

She's right at that crucial phase where you could continue gentle measures and work through this patiently for longer, or you could get her on track right away with firmer consequences to clear warnings. It really comes down to your style and how much time you can devote to discipline. If you have one child and a helpful spouse, you have some lee-way. Your daughter sounds very mild-mannered for three. If you want faster results, tighten up. Lots of methods are right as long as you are most concerned about love and teaching.

I never bothered with time outs because it seemed to me they were expecting kids to "pretend" they were getting disciplined. I did exactly as Laurie A spelled out, only I never ever left a venue-but that does work for some.

My toddlers, 3s, 4s had to behave at the park or the store or the concert or the friend's house. We would NOT leave for their bad behavior. They knew the expectations. I made sure they weren't ill or exhausted or hungry. They were prepped upon entry to the locations. They received one quiet calm warning from me to stop whatever bad behavior may start once we were there. BUT, if they then chose to continue the behavior (as all kids do) after being prepared in advance AND given a clear warning, they were removed immediately (bathroom, car) for a pop on the butt and then RETURNED to the scene of the crime to behave with the calm explanation that there would be discipline AGAIN if necessary. I never had to discipline twice in one trip and I never had to do this very often at all for my three kids including the extremely difficult one.

Most of the time at a crowded party or something, once I removed them to the restroom, and they were well in check, worried, knew what they had been doing wrong and expected the worst, I would deliver ONE MORE serious quiet warning at eye level. That solved the issue 99.9% of the time, because they were given a chance to see that I actually could (and would) take action because god knows kids know when they can get away with stuff….It's important to swoop as behavior is BEGINNING and not let them get carried away and then attempt damage control.

I'm a single parent, so I couldn't personally leave the grocery store, Dr office, music lessons.... or reschedule stuff whenever the kids were bad. The biggest perk to this choice is that even AFTER some misbehavior, the activity STILL gets to end well. Immediately after discipline, you can switch gears to finishing the activity, getting back to the birthday party, park, whatever. You're not angry, so you simply go back to the nice event, no grudge. And carry on with your day praising the good and demonstrating to the child how easy it is to stop wrong behavior and get back to having fun. Your brief warning before the next outing will be much more effective if they BELIEVE you.

If you get mad because you've let it get too crazy (kids tend to escalate in phases until they need resetting) and the kids are bonkers and past all hope of listening, it's best to just leave so you can calm down (never discipline while angry or you shift focus from THEIR behavior to YOUR spaz attack), but don't even attribute it to the kids in that case. I've done that a couple of times and told them "I just felt like leaving because you were acting badly. Period." so they knew I was still in charge. Angry lectures and venting will not deter future episodes, it will just get them used to upsetting you with no consequences. If I was NOT angry because I was addressing behavior right away, I would make them behave, not leave.

A note on the swat "only for dangerous circumstances". I'm all for swats to prevent bad behavior when time-outs and logical consequences are ineffective. But if they are inconsistent, as in very rare and only for danger, they may render other consequences less effective-since it sends the message that only in extreme circumstances will that happen. This way the child knows that for things like talking back, defiance, tantrums and other misbehaviors in stores etc, nothing major will happen, so it's very hard to nip those behaviors. If you step up with maximum firmness after warnings consistently in formative years (ages 1 thru 2. 3 is getting up there), you'll rarely have to use more than a warning and then the child's habits can set more easily with more practice being good, and less practice being bad. Once they're older, they have logic and sympathy and self-control, so the consequences change.

I take my three kids to the grocery store EVERY WEEK and have since the birth of my first who is almost 8. That's hundreds of trips to the store with babies, toddlers and beyond. I've only had to swat butts in the restroom about twice. Once in the aisle when I was ENORMOUSLY pregnant (and technically on bed rest but had no one to shop for me) and my 2 1/2 year old looked me in the eye, looked at my belly, calculated my speed, and then ran away after I warned him to stop running. He was both embarrassed and stung (literally, on the butt) when I caught up with him (waddling), and he hasn't run away since, and now he's almost 6. Did anyone around me that day think I was a monstrous abuser? Probably but who cares? I wasn't going to hobble all the way across the store to the restroom with him and have a miscarriage on the account of strangers' opinions. And I wasn't going to chase him every week either. It's the fact that I will calmly, confidently and consistently discipline that enables me to almost never have to. The kids know what they are supposed to do and they know the consequence for deciding not to do it after being warned. The consequences aren't always changing so it's very easy for toddlers to gage. It was instant because I caught the very first infractions. At three it MAY take more repetition...but maybe not since three is pretty sophisticated for some kids.

Let's examine your logical and thoughtful consequences: She misbehaves at park so you leave. Right away or after several chances? Is leaving very hideous? Are your car seats made of wood blocks and nails sticking out? is she taken to hard labor in the gallows? No. She may cry in the car (and get away with a tantrum in that case) or just ride home gazing out the windows at the beautiful scenery on her way to her fun toys in her nice house. If she's getting lectured, she's three so she doesn't care. She tries to run in parking lot? Nothing wrong with that at three-UNLESS she continues after your sharp warning. Once she defies your direction to stop running her punishment is...rolling around the store in a cart? My kids would RATHER ride in the cart! Even if she cries (tantrum) and seems like she'd rather walk in the moment, the ride in a cart is not a punishment. Because it's basically fun and relaxing unless she's melting down which I wouldn't personally allow so I'd have to enact discipline then-so may as well get it out of the way on first offense of running in parking lot when you said no. Because god knows, once they get away with a couple of little things, it only escalates. Acting up at dinner so no dessert or TV? Too delayed for three, and dessert and TV are luxuries anyway. I would make her behave AT the table IN THE MOMENT with immediate consequences and the requirement to stay and behave.

All of the outcomes you list are DIFFERENT so overall there isn't consistency to wrong action, which will make it take longer to sink for her when you are SERIOUS. That is normal. That's the catch with logical consequences. My friends who use them have misbehavior for much longer than parents who stick to ONE effective consequence for all misbehavior. And it's OK to take the longer patient route. Her behavior is very good in ratio to her boundaries. If you say in your ETA you're able to prevent most of this with redirection etc so it's only at home....you've done well with her and this will be nipped in no time if you are effective-or eventually if you go easier and stay consistent. Especially at 3. If she was difficult, you'd be in way hotter water by now. You have a nice child who just needs a bit more firmness if you feel she does. She sounds like my first who has been disciplined like 3 times in her 8-year-old life.

The ways you are disciplining are very thoughtful and you're doing great work being loving and caring and thorough, but sometimes kids need firmer boundaries when logical consequences and time-outs are not stopping behaviors. I wish it wasn't so, no one likes to get tough, but the more effective and consistent you are the less you'll have the issues. The book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson is really good for this age.

Hi M., I hear you, kids can be "willful"! That is what makes them so darn cute I guess! LOL!
I have two very independent daughters. They are now 17 and 14 (and we all survived!)

One thing that I always said when there was undesirable behaviour is:
We don't do that is this family. (Then we state why).
Are you a part of this family? (we wait for an answer)
Great, then we don't do that in this family.
And that was that.
It never became an issue of "will the punishment fit the crime"...they learned that "we don't do that in this family".

When my daughter was 4 she was playing with a neighbour girl and the neighbour threw sand. My daughter looked right her, very seriously and said, "we don't do that in this park. It might get in someone eyes and that can be bad. Do you still want to play with me?" the neighbour girl said "yes", so then my daughter repeated, "we don't throw sand." And they went back to playing.

Children need boundaries. They will push them of course, but what if the boundary was a fact? For safety reasons, for health reasons, for reasons of respect or morality?

Punishment or discipline are not necessary...simply good, solid explainable parenting is all that is necessary.

Oh sure, you are thinking "what if they answer they don't want to be a part of this family"? That one is simple.
EX:
parent: We don't hit in this family. Hitting hurts and it makes people sad or angry. We don't hit in this family. Are you a part of this family?
Child: No, I don't want to be.
parent: Okay then, whose family do you want to be a part of?
Child: I want to be in "name of friends" family.
parent picking up the phone: "okay, let's call them". (and really call them) say to parent on the other end. "Hi, we don't hit in our family and my daughter wants to hit so she thought she would like to join your family." Of course the other parent will say (and I put my child on the phone). "Well we don't hit in this family either". the child will soon realize that no families allow that kind of behaviour.

It sounds too simple to work, but trust me, I taught Middle School/Junior High and Senior High for 12 years. I said the same things in my classroom. I rarely had situations that in appropriate.

B.