Who Do I Punish?

Hi, J.:
When you witnessed the 4 y.o. doing these things, did you intercede
to show the right thing to do? If you witness it and don't do anything to stop it, then the children don't need to be punished for something that you didn't do anything about.

Just a thought..
D.

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Your question may be pointing to something much deeper than just this one difficult day. I've read many of your previous posts, J., and it appears you have a really challenging situation with your older boy. I worry that, if you don't find some plan for parenting other than punishing for each misbehavior as it occurs, you may end up having two children who run you ragged instead of just one.

There are SUCH good parenting books available, with such effective approaches. I hope you'll check a few out from the library and try to understand why and how "positive" parenting can help make your life easier, calmer and happier, and get your boys working to be more positive members of your family.

I have a few favorites: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk; Playful Parenting; and Parenting Without Power Struggles are especially good. But there are dozens of others that would give you new tools to work with, and you can just read a few paragraphs here and there as you can find time, and put the information to work. It will be worth the effort.

Since your older boy is so "destructive," it's also quite possible he has a neurological dysfunction and can't help himself. Talk to your pediatrician about this and ask what local resources you have available to evaluate his problems and work with them in a positive way.

Good luck. Parenting can be really, really hard.

The OLDER kid, should be punished.
Simple.

The age disparity, between a 4 year old and a 2 year old... is a lot, and developmentally.

Your 4 year old... is ON PURPOSE, doing this, to his younger brother.
On purpose.
He is trying... to get his younger brother, in trouble. That is also, obvious.
You need to SIT him down.... and you AND Hubby, talk to him, concretely... and call him on his behavior.
I would.... TELL him, that you KNOW he is doing this on purpose, that you SAW him do it, that you are not dumb... and he CANNOT FOOL YOU.
You need to tell him, you are onto him.....
Or film him doing it. Then show him.

If you don't correct this now... then what? He will get older and worse.
He has to have, FINITE consequences.... and, you AND Hubby, sit him down and tell him, BLUNTLY... that you are onto him... that he cannot fool you and you know he is causing, trouble, on purpose.
AND that... it is MEAN. Mean to his brother, to you, to the whole family... because... a family does not 'harm' each other nor get each other in trouble. A 'family' should have each other's back... and watch out for each other and HELP.
You TEACH him, what a "family" is... and he is a PART of that... or not.

Your son is 4. You need to tell him, in a grown up way, not talking to him like a baby... and tell him... that is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE.

AND you teach the 2 year old... NOT to follow his brother... but to TELL YOU.... when brother is causing trouble and causing harm.... but also tell your 2 year old... that he cannot act that way.
Again, your 2 year old... is being 'taken by the hand'... by your 4 year old... and TOLD what to do.
Younger siblings... often, do what their older siblings say.
I know, I am the youngest sibling.... among real bossy overbearing obnoxious siblings. One of them, 'loved' to see me get punished... just loved it... in real cold mean way. That sibling, was always, 'jealous' of me. For whatever reason.

You teach the 2 year old, HOW to stand-up... to his older brother...

all the best,
Susan

You really need to get some help for your 4 yo. My oldest son has some of those same issues (he's been diagnosed ODD) and at that age a play therapist was so beneficial for him.

As for discipline, yes, you need to take care of both of them although is doesn't have to be the same thing. For instance, I would have put the older one in time out AFTER he helped pick up the mess he just made but only have the little one help with the mess, after which he would be free to continue playing. You need to nip that in the bud now while you still have a chance. I know, it doesn't seem fair, but your 2 yo needs to understand NOW that it's not ok to do what big brother tells him to do. You have a potential dangerous situation there. What if your older son decides to climb something high, etc. Your younger son needs to know that one, he can't do it too, and two, that he needs to get a responsible adult.

I used to be in the same boat you're in but I learned it the hard way. My younger children picked up a lot of bad habits from their older brother and I'm still working on weeding them out.

Your 4 y/o needs more than a time out - my opinion, since time outs obviously aren't working for him.

As for the 2 y/o - you need to talk to him about not doing what his brother tells him, because you will start punishing him too, next time he follows his brother.

Hi J.-

I would say...put your mom in time out!! Especially if she thru a fit in front of the kiddos!!

Just saying...
michele/cat

My opinion is this:
They should both be punished for pulling out all the movies and throwing the folded clothes on the floor. Equally age appropriate. If that is time out in your house.. then time out. 2 minutes for the 2 year old 4 min for the 4 yr old or however you time them.

However, and this is a biggie, your 4 yr old should ALSO be punished for essentially "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" for lack of a better term. It sounds like you have some real issues to deal with in your 4 yr old already... if he is purposefully going around wreaking havoc. Address that. Pronto.
But when he intentionally TEACHES your younger son to participate in bad behavior... then he needs to be punished for that. That is a separate behavior on top of the actual destructiveness with the movies/clothes.

Our son is and always (so far) been held to a slightly higher standard of behavior than our daughter. He is 3 yrs older. So he is to consider the example he sets for her. When he shows/teaches/talks her into doing something he knows is wrong, then it is worse than just doing wrong himself.. he is dragging someone else into poor choices/behavior. That is a big no-no.

Good luck.

Tell your 4 year old he's in time out for telling his brother to do something he knows is wrong. Tell your two year old he's in time out because what he did was wrong (we don't throw clothes on the floor), period, even if big brother said too.

i agree. both. if you only punish the older one, not only does the younger one thinks it's okay if "he" does it, the older will resent his brother and you.

They both get punished. The 4 yr old gets a more severe punishment than the 2 yr old, but the 2 yr old needs to know that he did wrong and it's not acceptable behavior and won't be tolerated.

"Punish" them BOTH. Even though the older one instigated it, you will end up in a lot of battles with the oldest if he is the one getting punished all the time.

Older children are commonly more difficult. I think this is because they feel like they were replaced by the little ones. Hang in there, and try not to be too hard on your oldest, even though he is annoying and instigates things. He's still young too.

4 year old should get punished for what he did wrong AND for dragging your 2 year old into it - he should know he's being punished for both behaviours. 2 year old should get a smaller punishment for doing the wrong thing - reinforce that he did the wrong thing, and that he shouldn't do the wrong thing because someone else did it.

First I want to say that my son is only 1, so I am not a mother of 2 or older yet. However I have MUCH (15 yrs) younger siblings, and so from that experience I will say that I think the 2 yr old needs to be punished so that they know that it's not ok to follow along and think there are no consequences. However, I believe the older child needs to be more severely punished as he is the older one who is expected to be an example. The 2 yr old should not "get away with it" But the 4 yr old should also be punished for a)doing the act AND b)leading his brother to do the same.

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older kid should be punished a little different than the younger kid. dont let your older son be a charles manson and dont let your younger kid be weak enough to want to follow suit.

I think they both should have been in timeout.

If your 2yr old if typically a good mannered toddler, and he did wrong, he should have went too.

You shouldn't punish one and not the other when they are both equally wrong.

Just my opinion!

I would punish both. That way the youngest learns the consequences of those actions.

you need to stop your 2yo from being a follower ... sorry but they both do it they both get in trouble ... when in adulthood does "he made me do it" work? You are now teaching your 2yo that it does work!

punish both. or the 2 yr old will start what the 4 yr old is doing.

Updated

punish both. or the 2 yr old will start what the 4 yr old is doing.