Thanks! You Were Very Helpful.

no fooling, i appreciate the warning that this is going to be deleted. i hate crafting a reply and having the question disappear.
khairete
S.

My heart goes out to her. Depression is a serious illness and very difficult to treat. If she has bouts of sitting around immobile with no friends, and other bouts of energy (like taking a nighttime hike), there's more going on - there are different forms of mental illness. But when you are the one in the middle of it, being alone, having no energy, and barely functioning are very common. It's very sad that she has no friends, but it's not surprising. When you have depression or any form of mental illness, not to mention 4 kids, it takes a lot of effort just to stay afloat, and giving to others just isn't in the equation. How very sad for her.

Yes, he has tried to get her to counseling, but if she was ambushed and felt ganged up on by the husband and the therapist ("it's YOUR problem") then she understandably retreated.

Meantime, he wants her to go to counseling or on date nights to help him (which she may be reading as "I'll take you out but I want sex"), but he won't come home, take on the work, make the lunches, help with baths, give her a day off, or anything else? I'm sorry - he's got a problem too. He may not have caused her mental illness, but he's not supporting her. What was he doing at 8:30 at night when she took the kids out? Maybe she needed to get away from him? Maybe she wanted to have the kids experience nature? If she had a teen with her and the baby in a snugli, they were probably in a big enough group to be safe. I live in the suburbs with wooded areas nearby, and I can tell you there are coyotes out all the time as more and more houses are built on former woodlands. If there's a rabid one, it could be out during the day. I assure you, we are all out with our kids and just vigilant.

Stay out of it. I know that's incredibly hard to do and it pains me to say it. You cannot help this situation because a) you are not part of that marriage and b) you have been estranged from your brother so you are not close enough anyway. Neither of them wants any criticism - if anything, they want you to back them up so they can say to the other one, "LeeLee agrees you are in the wrong." DO NOT go down that road.

You can offer to take the kids for the day to give her a break, you can ask him what you can do to help, but you cannot take sides or be anything other than a good listener and a babysitter. Your father needs to stay out of it too. Who knows if she really was in a coyote-infested area or if your brother either wants to make her look bad or rack up more criticism against her?

Encourage him to step up for the kids rather than critique her. If they split up, the kids still need their dad, and he should be just as active anyway (divorce or not) in their medical appointments, school conferences, preschool carpooling, and more.

She may need counseling, but he needs parenting classes and marriage counseling too. If he's serious, he should go alone even if she won't accompany him, because he needs to learn to be a hands-on father. Maybe he can give up some lunches, stay away from the pool unless he takes the kids, and forget about the movies. He's being ridiculously selfish.

Those 4 kids need 2 parents, and it doesn't sound like they have any.

Oy.
I don't know what I would do if it were my sibling. But I think this is what I would do.

I would try to be neutral at first. Start the conversation with questions.
If he is a business man then ask questions that he might relate to better.
His answers should be very telling.

How much of this divorce do you feel as your fault? 0 percent? 50 percent?

How much are you willing to change to save this marriage? Percentage?

How much do you think a divorce would change your life? For the better? For the worse? Percentage?

How much do you think it would change your children's lives? For the better? For the worse? Would it cause their emotional and physical well being to be threatened?

If it happens, how much would your parent's lives be effected? Percentage? (as a mom of partially grown kids, I am sensitive to this one.)

If this happened, how much would your parenting skills be challenged?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to hop on that train now and improve them while you are still there?

How much do you feel your lack of hands on parenting contributes to your wife's mental health decline? Percentage? Don't you think if that was a significant factor, that a significant improvement in that would cause her to rethink this decision MUCH more than a date night???

Really, I think he hasn't a clue. He's trying to fix something in a way he feels comfortable, NOT the way it needs fixing.

Doesnt mean his wife does not bear blame. They are right that she needs medicine. She can't begin to see her way to the light without it. His goal should be to give her hope enough to WANT to be well. That's going to take lots of work on his part, but SO worth it.

In Sickness and in Health.

What jumps out at me Lee, is that even you are afraid of your brother cutting you out of his life if you approach him with your true thoughts. Is this his pattern, that as long as you support him, like his current doormat wife, you receive his friendship?

Honestly, you're brother sounds like he has contributed greatly to her emotional and physical demise.

Why the heck did they have another baby? Why have they not hired help at home, to give her a much needed break, since he is too busy with his own social life, exercise regime, and business, to tend to his family, as you point out.

Your brother found a woman who would be doormat for him. So he can carry on as if his responsibilities lay all outside the house. I can see why she would cancel couples weekends, she's probably too tired to go. Unless, they do have help and quality childcare? Do they?

The other interpretation of his behavior, is of course, he drags her to counseling, and points out her faults, because by now, it's true. Anorexia coupled with 4 children and an absent, non-helping partner, would put any of us over the edge, no matter the financial support.

You know the potential outcome with your brother, he'll shut you out. Wow, that's pretty serious punishment for wanting to express your opinion. I wonder how he treats her behind closed doors? Probably shuts her out even more, if that's even possible to do, given all his 'me' time.

And I also know that you know what is right to do. You can't let your brother live in the land of make believe, that the world revolves around him. He has created this scenario with this woman.

It sounds like she has had enough of him calling all the shots, and her final voice is one of leaving. At least she'll get a break every other weekend.

Not sure how it would go over, and I apologize if this is repeating, but I would bet dollars to donuts that having HIM help her out would do FAR FAR more for their relationship than however many nannies, housekeepers or mother's helpers he is willing to provide for her. How sad that he'd rather pay someone to help his wife than step up and do so himself. And I'm sure that (chemical imbalances or no) that very concept weighs on his wife as well.
I know it would be on my mind...
"I'm so ___ that he has to pay people to be around me and he won't even help me himself." That sort of logic...

Now, if he were working crazy 70 hour weeks and not getting home until all hours or whatever, that would be a different thing. But you say he has a fairly standard M-F 9-5 type situation. That's a different animal.

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Okay, so scrolling thru briefly, MyMission pretty much nailed it, in my opinion.

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ETA after your so what happened: Okay, so he readily admits at least 50% fault lies with him. Great. Does he have a game plan to try to work on repairing that portion that is his fault? Does his game plan incorporate ideas that are different than what he tried in the past (which didn't work)? For example, hiring a housekeeper instead of him running a load of wash or getting all the kids down for bed for the night. They are both help. But different kinds of help. And one involves giving of himself rather than giving from his wallet.

I suggest that you encourage him to seek out ways to work out the marriage if it can be saved. To ensure that he leaves no stone unturned in his quest to save his marriage.

I would ensure that ALL advice leads that direction, and you keep your judgments to yourself or be very careful with the blaming finger. If you do mention it, try to do so in a way that helps him to identify it himself instead of you being the one telling him. Ask him leading questions and let him figure it out.

Most of all...listen more and speak way less than you want to. All too often, I know that if I have a listening ear, I find that I work out my problems pretty well if I can just talk it out.

ETA: If you're using a "pen-name" on this site, and you didn't name any names, why delete the question? There are others who might have benefitted from your question, and the answers are all still here.

I don't even need to read the details here. Divorce is DEVASTATING to families (most especially the kids) and people very rarely end up "happier" long term on the other side of it. Your brother and his wife probably have plenty of people in their lives telling them what they "want" to hear. But the question is simple.....do you love them enough to tell them what they NEED to hear?

I would. When my brother needs a good swift kick in the pants, no better person to give it to him than me. I also ask a lot of questions. Your Brother needs to realize that he is responsible for these kids now more than ever. Does he know that he will now be responsible for 4 children by himself when he has them. Of course, he'll probably bring them to your parents house those days!

Your sister in law needs help. Can you talk to her about how her mental health is affecting her family? And how if she gets help, her family might actually survive what might be a very rough patch?

Ugh, I'm sorry to hear all of this. Best of luck!

My first thought is that you could speak to him in a kind and helpful way, but don't act like your are judging him or he will probably get mad. I'd ask how you can help him and his family out. Then when you get in there and he knows that you know what is really going on (with his non help in the family), then maybe you can say something. He needs to know that if he loves his wife that a little goes a long way, and helping her out with the kids and housework would surely light up her eyes. Heck maybe he could get her a maid to help out till she starts feeling better. Tell him to forget about the romantic weekend idea, and put on his parenting gloves. I'm sure he'd see a difference in her then.

Hi. I will try to put myself in your place. If it were my brother...I think it is great they are in couple's counselling. He/she sounds like he/she has pinpointed one important issue -- the depression and the need for help. I would probably advise my brother that he talk to a therapist as well...to help him process on his own, with an objective person...his 'stuff'...does that make sense. Otherwise, I would just be a listening ear, unless my advice were asked. Even then, I think I would suggest individual counseling. It will also preserve your relationship with him. There is only so much we can do for other people if they don't do their own development and growth. I hope I make sense. Good Luck.

I shared a few words with my brother during his divorce. They were together for 20 years, my SIL was my sister for more years than not at that point in my life....it drove a wedge into my relationship with my brother.

No offense, but I'm with your SIL here. If hubby was never home, never involved, I'd probably be suicidal, especially with 4 kids. I also dated a guy for years when I was younger that I swear caused my depression. Once he was gone, I was free of such weight. I had no clue. Maybe your SIL feels a lot a weight from your brother...only they know what their relationship is like, and only they know their needs.

What I wouldn't do if I was you is quickly judge the SIL and side with your brother. Your parents will quickly make her into the devil. Don't go there.