Question About Marriage Counseling - Boulder,CO

I believe you, that it's mostly him.

If he's willing to go to a therapist with you, that's a good start. Hopefully the therapist will help convince him, very tactfully, of the things he needs to change.

I had to push my marriage to the point of divorce before my obstinate husband finally listened about the things that (justifiably) were bothering me, so I know the type, to an extent. Good luck. You will have to be strong.

p.s. -- When we finally went to therapy, we did two individual sessions first, where we each got to freely bit*h about the other, before we went jointly.

Boy he sounds like my father back in the day.

What will happen is you will each talk about what your marriage is like from your perspective. You may be encouraged to discuss these descriptions. Then the therapist may ask questions like.. "And how did you feel when she asked you to change the litter?" And then ask you, "How did you feel when he balked at having to change the cat litter?"

It is like the Therapist will guide the 2 of you to discuss these incidents with expectations and maybe some help on better ways to communicate with each other.

And yes the therapist may observe patterns in your relationship, your communications etc.

This person will not really take sides, but will listen very carefully and then maybe make suggestions about communications styles and also who we hear what people are saying to us.

Here is an example. When my sister and I were in therapy, with my dad.. The therapist did notice that my sister snaps at me when she speaks. I shut down at this.

The therapist told me. "L., when she speaks to you like that, tell her to stop, and that she is not allowed to speak to you like that."

And so for some reason, this empowered me to tell her, "Hey, you are not allowed to speak to me like that."

My sister tells me things that drive her crazy about me. She NEVER has a positive thing to say.. The Therapist asked her about this. My sister said, "I am not apologizing, those are my feelings." The Therapist told me. T"hat is her problem not yours. You can tell her that too. "

So she was empowering me, but also letting my sister know, I have a right to stand up for myself.

She did ask my sister why she has these feelings,? Why does she spend so much tie bullying me and others.. She asked this in a more professional way..

You have nothing to worry about or to be nervous about. Just go in there and be truthful. It helped me to write down notes on things I was upset about.

I am sorry to say that your "picker" is bad. For some reason you did not have you the radar to see the red flags before marriage to this man or even prior to kids. This is my story also. My mother is a Adult Child of an Alcoholic (A.C.O.A), and passed her codependency to me. So for what ever reason in the past for choosing this mate I suggest that whatever he does in counseling you go yourself to help heal from this succubus of esteem! My ex-husband is a real charmer and it doesnt matter how much counseling you have both had, we had ten years or more of therapy. Has he changed? No, and my poor girls have suffered from it. He has even schmoozed counselors. So may I suggest that you make an extended plan for yourself. I know this is so hard and I still have to deal with mine. He has used my kids against me and alienated my oldest. He has screamed at them and have changed their personalities because of it, I even ended Court before it went to trial and in retrospect I should have found a second job just to pay the lawyers. Please start documenting major incidences in private, if you work, start saving a little here and there. Also, get all your paper work copied before you do anything. These guys are sly and will hack into your computer go through all your personal stuff so claim any heirlooms that your parents gave you and try to manipulate you in so many creative ways. I had to live with him for a year after we started the divorce and he would document every move I made. They cant believe that you would leave them because you are miserable and even found out he was considering putting a private investigator on me because he could not believe that I was having an affair. My ex-has not moved on and uses my kids as leverage and blames me for his life. I went through 4 years and four lawyers and if you have family please get support from them.
Truly, I am so sorry but in the end I am a wiser and better person. We all choose the karma but we don't have to be victims of it. When it comes to court you can order a personality test for who is a more fit parent.
He also may have passive-agressive behaviors also. Please read "A Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" by George K. Simon Jr., it helped me a lot.
Counseling for NPD is pretty bleak because they see nothing wrong with themselves. The whole idea is that you do not want your children picking up on his traits and having the same issues.
There are always options.....and I suffered greatly divorcing this man (and his rich narcissitic sister) but now I am in a relationship with a wonderful man with my eyes open. Also, mediation will not work if he is controlling and yourself a ruthless lawyer. Because none of this will be his fault and he will be the victim in this whole marriage. It wont matter how much you support him. help him etc.
"The frog knows when it is being thrown into boiling water, but put the frog into a pot of cool water and turn up the heat and it will realize it is too late to try to jump out" My dear , how miserable are you and do you believe you deserve happiness even if it has to be earned?

I have some insights for you, but I need to warn you that they are not encouraging.

If you truly believe he has NPD, the chances of marriage counseling working how you expect are not great. Be very, very prepared that when you go to see the therapist, the gist of your husband's conversation will be asking the therapist how he is supposed to handle *you*. Narcissists have extremely fragile egos and admitting fault is likely not going to happen. Narcissists are afraid of conflict, loathe it, so be prepared that what you say will be turned back on you.

Also be prepared that the very second the therapist mentions that he is a narcissist, he is going to be very angry (with both of you, likely) and quit therapy.

You, on the other hand, do not have to quit therapy. You can keep going, get help on how to deal with this. There are also boards/forums online for people dealing with family members and loved ones who have NPD or BPD (borderline personality disorder)... sometimes, a person with one will have the other as well. It's very difficult to reason or deal with people like this and very sad. I would work on making your situation as doable and manageable as possible.

I know you do not want to hear this, but I would look into finding out what your options are going forward. It must be tremendously hard on the kids to live with a person like this, too.

I have a parent with untreated NPD and BPD, and an ex-husband who is narcissistic as well. Our marriage counselor was pretty clear about this in regard to him. (The counselor did not tell my ex-husband that he was a narcissist; my ex-husband bailed on the process before that could happen, but she did tell me afterward when I began seeing her individually. She knew that confronting him with that label would have ended the counseling immediately.) He chose to divorce instead of change, and had the same attitude in regard to helping me that your husband has toward you. Everything in the relationship was my problem or fault. My advice to you would be to focus on getting you into a better situation, even if only mentally. You can heal from the damage done in these relationships-- walking on eggshells takes a toll-- it takes time, but it's worth it.

ETA: I didn't share all of this to disappoint you, but just so you would be prepared for what *might* happen. I certainly hope that what Laurie A shared is how things turn out, that you feel empowered to find your voice and to take control of your own life. We all go into relationships with people like this for a reason: they are often very, very charming and giving at the beginning of the relationship, so I know why it's easy to get involved with someone like this. They make us feel very good that they need us--- until they can just drop the act and be themselves... and that can sometimes take quite a while.

I don't have any personal experience with a counselor. My best friend did tell me about her experiences with one during the painful break up of her marriage to a guy that sounds a lot like yours. They had been married for 24 yrs. He was on every commity for the city. Schoomzed more than he worked, Narsasistic at home. They went to a few counselors before they found the right one for them. They saw her together and separately. As smooth talking as he was, the counselor saw right through him. She tried to get him to go to a paychietrist, he refused. He denied having affairs.
Long story, short, they ended up divorcing. He had been going out with women on the side for almost 20 yrs.

It could be regular selfishness. It could be Narsasistic Dissorder. It could be what my mil has, Borderline Personality Disorder (BPDfamily.com). You want a counselor with lots of experience. Preferably one connected to a psychiatrist office. If you have a big church that has them on staff, that can be a good option for low cost.

May you find peace.

My husband and I are going on 14 years and we also have two children. We are coming through or perhaps are still in a rough place. I have felt he has NPD as well as Borderline traits.

It takes a ling time to see patterns and notice triggers.

I believe my man and I are meant to learn something from each other and slowly, we seem to be moving in the right direction.

My husband can be very controlling at times. This is usually my cue to give him space. I am working on better boundaries with him, but it's taking time. And it's not easy. I have vented on manaoedia plenty!

I did suggest he move out a few months ago and we both then realized how much we still love each other and want to be together. I'm all over the map emotionally but I am doing what I need to do.

Why did I marry him? Despite our differences, we are still very much in love. I love him dearly even though he can be very disrespectful towards me. I used to be so judgemental of other women who were in my shoes but now I understand. A marriage can have many layers. Many phases and I'm not sure where we are

I have ny own therapist. I have joined CODA as well as an excellent forum called Out of the Fog.

I'm hoping we will make it through stronger than ever.

sometimes I wonder if people suggest giving up to quickly. It's worth the effort to work things our. I think.

through my marriage struggles I am also finding out who I am. So I for one will never regret my choices. I'm a stubborn Taurus and tend to take the rocky path, anyhow. Either way, I feel stronger from my marriage.

My only thought is,
why did you marry him, and why did you not only have one child with him, but more than one?
Sorry but these kinds of questions make no sense to me.
It's like someone saying, I bought a crappy house, I keep putting money into this crappy house, and it's still a crappy house. I will never leave this crappy house, and my children will be raised here.
WHY?!?!
Unless he used to be a really great, sweet and thoughtful guy, and then something happened to change him, I just don't get it. At all.
And what do you mean you cannot leave him? Of course you can. I'm not saying you should, but that is ALWAYS an option. American women are considered people, not property.

Just want to add that therapists are not so likely to give out a diagnosis, particularly in the beginning. The sessions will focus on getting you both to express your frustrations or communication breakdowns, and to get you to clarify your feelings. It sometimes takes a while to get a clear picture and to come up with a diagnosis anyway, but even if it doesn't, the surest way to get your husband to stop coming to counseling is to say "You're a narcissist." It would put anyone off, frankly, but especially someone with the control and "appearances" issues your husband appears to have.

I expect the therapist will also try to find things that you could do differently. He/she will also want to know more about the way you both were raised, what your habits and expectations are, what your views and values are.

It is possible that your husband is agreeing to therapy because he really wants to change. It's also possible that he thinks what you think: that the therapist will side with one spouse and tell the other one to knock it off. He thinks he's just as right as he was the first day he started this behavior. So any therapy is going to have to take time and start out gently if both people are going to be convinced that it's a good idea to continue.

If you feel you are stuck in this marriage, your husband probably knows it. So there's not much incentive to change, is there? If he is as two-faced as you say, with one public image and another personal reality, you've got to figure out why he would have any interest in doing things differently or making things better. In his view, it would all be fine if you just stopped your neediness?

I agree that things often get worse before they get better, so you should be prepared for that. Therapy is WORK and both people have to be committed to a better outcome.

Good luck.

Why don't you go to the therapist one week earlier or another therapist and explain your side without him there. -Sometimes.... the town one lives in will offer counseling on a sliding scale. Call the town's counseling center...

When you do go to counseling together, you will feel much more comfortable...

Don't tell him about going once w/out him...Just go. He will probably want to have control in telling u about this decision (Based on what u have said)...Let it be yours!

Focus on yourself. You cannot change him. The therapist cannot change him. He has to choose to change and from what you have described that may or may not happen. You can see the marriage counselor and also find a good counselor for yourself.

There are reasons that you chose a man like this and reasons why you feel you "can't" leave. Those are the things you can focus on. Gather information about verbally abusive relationships, co-dependency, boundaries, self-care, healing childhood issues, and healthy relationships. It is time to focus on your healing. The more you heal the better chance you have of eventually having a healthy relationship whether it is with him, with someone else, or simply with yourself.

Some good resources:

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans (she also has a good book about whether these men can change or not)
Boundaries: Where You End and I Begin by Anne Katherine
Fearless Living by Rhonda Britten
Conscious Loving by Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks (also check out their website)
The Art of Extreme Self-Care by Cheryl Richardson
www.thework.com

I definitely believe what you are saying, he doesn't sound like a great husband. However, if you are going to therapy for him/her to tell your husband that he's the problem, you are going to be disappointed. If you have a therapist that takes sides like that, you have a crappy therapist. They are there to help you and hubby learn to communicate and learn to heal your marriage- together. Now they may realize that they need to advocate for you more if he is domineering in the sessions, but there are two of you in this marriage and it will take two of you to make it better.

I'm just telling you this because I don't want you to be disillusioned by therapy. It really can help. I want you to go in with the attitude that you will learn more about you, and about your marriage. And you will hopefully learn more of why he is like this. It will not be helpful to go in with the attitude that you hope the therapist diagnoses him and agrees with you what a jerk he is and fixes him. It won't work like that.

I hope you gain some insights and learn to stand up to this man, and maybe even come out with a better marriage! Good luck! And good for you for taking this step! Oh, and if it helps- remind him how many people have gone to counseling- President Clinton, tons of celebs, etc.

we talked to a pastor and it helped immensely. lots of variables from what you're describing but our core issue was the same - the tone and words he used with those he was supposed to love most. me and our son.

what our pastor did was take us back to that time/place when we fell in love. it really made us both realize how much we value each other. and that it was worth working on to protect. he changed a lot after that.

i think the bottom line is, does he feel his family is worth a cold hard look at himself? is it worth making the effort to BE NICE. is it worth respecting you and your feelings? because if it's not - he'll lose it all.

i strongly disagree with going ahead of time and spilling all the counselor. first because that will automatically make your husband feel it's 2 to 1 before you even start. but also because, i think that going together, him hearing and seeing you bare your soul - in a place that he's not "allowed" to break down, tantrum out, and lash out, out of the guilt and fear your broken heartedness brings out - being forced to face it -will really make him come face to face with the reality of what he's done to you. that was what did it for my husband.

be willing to look at yourself too btw. i think you are. honestly, the biggest thing i had to realize was, that even the times my husband would put out some effort, i was so automatically ready to be hurt that i would be on the defensive. i had had HAD to let go, and let him try. that means, yes, giving him even more "breaks". give him a break and see that when he's trying he needs positive feedback or he will revert.

last - very important. you CAN leave. he has to know it and believe it. which means you do too. find a women's shelter. if you're in boulder i promise there are options. you have to get to the point that you KNOW in your heart that raising these kids alone - with them knowing you left their dad because of how he treated all of you - is going to be better than staying.

it is possible he might change if he doesn't ever think you'll leave - but i can guarantee you that if he believes in his heart that he will lose you - it will be a LOT bigger motivator. and i'm not talking about bluffing, either. you have to realize (both of you) that this is a real possibility. the stakes are high. the highest. things need to CHANGE. you both have to realize that and be 100% committed to making it work.

If you are going to counseling in the hopes that the counselor will fix your husband, then you are going to be disappointed. Marriage counseling is about fixing the communication between you.
However, it seems like most of the issues you bring up are about respect and compromise (you get none and you are the only one compromising). If those really are the issues, then counseling can help you both learn the tools you need to rebuild a marriage filled with respect and love. Be prepared for the counselor to have things for BOTH of you to work on and really work on your side of it.

Good luck. Marriage isn't easy.