Odd and ADHD

My son is bipolar and we use charts. He earns stars for doing certain things and behaving a certain way. Then at the end of the day his stars are added up and he can cash them in for x amount of tv or save them as a $$ value to use later. We never take stars away. It really helps him see what's expected and gives him a sense of accomplishment when he earns something.

2 things

1) Here's the major tell between ADHD What If & Self Defense v ODD

- ADHD Is arguing EITHER

- POSSIBILITIES (The sky is blue. No it isn't. It's white -clouds- grey -storm clouds- black and sparkley -night- red -sunset- orangey brownish mauve -sunset- ... There are about 4 color variations Im going to skip... And that's before bringing in other planets, blind people, brain injuries, blood in your eyes, colorblindness, emotional state, sandstorms, tornadoes, if you happen to be a fish, etc.). OR
- In self defense (especially in response to emotional stimuli. Have you ever been beaten within an inch of your life? I have. It hurt LESS that some of the stuff my parents "did" to me. Why? Because emotions don't FADE with ADHD. They come on, full force, and stay until they're replaced. We eventually learn emotional monitoring and regulation, but it takes years and years without meds. I used to get into SCREAMING arguments with my mum, over ridiculous things, just because I didn't want to die. Die??? Yep. Imagine pregnancy mood swings. Times 1000x. Things HURT, and are taken wrong, and hurt so bad you want to die. So you lash out in self defense. Because ANGER is a heckuva lot easier to deal with than suicidal despair. Coming from not having put your shoes away. Seriously. I was 5, I left my 'Jellies' out. My mum was disappointed in me. And I wanted to die of mortification. So instead I started yelling at her, and threw my shoe. I don't remember ALL my fights with my mum. But I remember several hundred. Why? Because memories link to intense emotion. The ADHD temper tantrums are LEGENDARY ... Again, because our emotions don't fade over time. I am JUST as embarassed over stuff that I did at 5yo as I did at 5pm today. This -later- infamously morphs into a "whatever" attitude where we act as if we don't care. Because we DO care. So deeply that its scary.

2) Negative reinforcement works really BADLY with ADHD. As in, almost not at all

Neurotypical kids, it works great. ADHD kids? We focus on the punishment instead of WHY we're being punished. There are ways to make negative reinforcement work (long, tedious, exhausting ways)... But if you want results... Go for positive reinforcement. A lot of it. Keep some neg on, just because that's life... But expect it to make things worse, in general, instead of better. Kind of like telling a fat person they're fat. Doesn't usually help. At. All. And often makes things worse. But sometimes can't be avoided.

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Um. NEVER expect to not repeat yourself with ADHD. You will be repeating yourself forever. Consider repetition like insulin shots. It's needed. Period. And when we're grown up, we repeat things to ourselves. And have more than one alarm / calendar/ etc. It's just part of what IS with ADHD.

One thing that I did with my son to help FFWD the emotional monitoring and regulation was a marble jar. In the beginning he got up to 2 marbles every "period" (before breakfast, school, after lunch, sports, dinner to bed, nighttime... Gradually shifted into morning and afternoon, then a whole day. And by gradually I mean 3 mo, 3mo, 6mo). 2 if he didn't lose his temper, 1 if he started to lose it, but caught himself. 0 if he lost it (Key in the beginning was having a Lot of periods, so he had another "shot" soon. And then as he got better at the self reg, the periods got longer). He got to pick his 'prize'. It was a BIG jar, and took almost a year to fill. He spent all year debating between Great Wolf Lodge & a Seaplane ride. Double bene... Deciding between 2 awesome things for long term gratification, plus short term grat in 'plunk plink!!!' And watching it rise (big but narrow).

Another thing was a chore chart with BALANCE being the key, as well as 'success'. A key with ADHD is that we'll rarely do everything. Whether our list is 2 things long or 40. So a BIG list, instead of being overwhelming (like big lists are for neurotypical types) is comforting / successfull... Simply because we get so much done.

At 6 my sons chart looks like this:

Daily
Bathroom
Take shower & wash my hair
Brush teeth
Hang up towels
Dress
Make my breakfast
Wash my dishes
Help mom set up for school
Play
School
Help make lunch
Wash my lunch dishes
Play
Help with projects
Help make dinner
Help clean up from dinner
Clean Toilet
Take bath
Brush teeth
Pjs

Weekly
- Wash my clothes
- Put my clothes away
- Wash my sheets
- Help with Projects

You'll note some "duh" things are on the list, as well as some fun (play) right along with cleaning type, school, and 'open ended' (help with projects). The idea behind the ADHD daily chore chart being 3 fold:

- Reletition grinds in habit /Successes (the more done, the more gets done)
- Positive reinforcement.
- BALANCE (its super easy for ADHD types to get wildly out of balance)

As far as allowance, we did percents and bonuses. At 6 he got $7 per week if he did all his chores, and a $3 bonus for doing them with good attitude.

You need to be working with a psychologist who is well versed in medications for ODD and a psychologist who's evaluations show this diagnosis. ODD and ADHD almost always go hand in hand.

There is still to this day a huge number of licensed psychologist who truly believe that ODD is totally the results of bad parenting. I argue the point that if they are bad parents then why did the other kids turn out so okay????

So I don't buy into that as the total cause. That retraining the parents will fix the ODD. That's just wrong in my opinion.

The main therapy that works with ODD is PCIT, Parent Child Interaction Training. In it you learn to do certain types of play therapy with the kids and take a different style of working with this child. This requires a commitment from both parents to play "special time" with the child for a set amount of time each day. This can be a mirror type of play, like if you're doing Play Doh and they make a green snake, you take green Play Doh and make a green snake as much like theirs as possible. This shows them they have important ideas. There are many other types of ideas in this therapy.

Find a therapist that is very good in this area. They will be able to help you grow and develop the skills to treat this at home on a daily basis. It sure makes that child bond to you too. They feel important since you took time to spend it specifically with them. This time is ALL about them, nothing about you or anyone else, all about them. The toys are never used except at this time, dad might do blocks and you might do Play Doh, next day dad might use puzzles and you might use crayons and coloring. It is a specific set of toys used for a specific time frame and never used for anything else. It is that special.

Ours takes Depakote as a mood stabilizer. It seems to help some. I wish it helped a bit more. He also takes Ritalin. It's like a miracle to me. For the next 2-3 hours after taking his Ritalin he is calm, focused, not throwing tables and chairs or breaking windows out of the bedroom, he's not trying to kick his sister or hurt the cat, he's not trying to break the glass door on the dryer, or flood the house with water. He's a normal bright loving kid.

I say try as many meds as the psychiatrist will write scrips for. Find what works for your little one. The change will be stunning.

Sounds like you and your daughter would benefit from firm consistent discipline. You said you punish her in different ways. I suggest you choose a method and stick with it. Have your focus to be teaching her better behavior.

I believe that taking away things and privileges do not work most of the time because doing so does not teach how to behave. Doing so tends to cause anger.

Gear the discipline to the misbehavior. When she's sassy and disrespectful she goes to her room until she can be good company. She can do whatever she wants in her room because being there is to give her an opportunity to change her attitude. Tell her she can come out when she's able to be respectful. Then when she comes out give her a hug and repeat why you sent her to her room. Then it's over with.

Never argue with a child. It's so easy to slip into doing so. Walk away, send her to her room, but do not respond when she tries to argue. You don't have to settle any issue immediately. Have a discussion when she's able to listen and participate without argument. For me this is the hardest thing to do. I want my child to see why I'm right. When we're arguing neither one of us can see anything but irritation and eventually anger.

Do not tell her 15 times to clean her room. Tell her once, remind her once and then have a consequence. That is the time to say no TV until your room is clean. Give her specific directions such as pick up your toys and put them in your toy box/on the shelves, etc. Make your bed. Put your dirty clothes in the hamper. Hang up your clean clothes. Just saying clean up your room may be too overwhelming or not give enough information. Have you worked with her so that she knows how to clean up her room? I discovered with my daughter that I just expected her to understand how to do it after I'd shown her a couple of times. She just was not able to comply until I'd worked with her several times while we were both in a good mood. Getting frustrated and using a tense impatient voice does not work.

It is very important to be consistent with discipline as we teach them appropriate behavior. It is important to allow our children to express their thoughts and feelings in a respectful.manner. I suggest that one reason she argues may be that she doesn't feel heard. I recommend the book, How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish.

The ODD checklist is extremely suspect as every single point on it could be caused by lack of discipline, unstable household, etc. I KNOW that is not your daughter's case, but the list matches many kids to a "T" ON EVERY POINT who have no disorder (I know several). I'm sure your daughter is very well-disciplined, and has a structured loving home, but it would be helpful if you explain your system so we understand what you're up against.

Rewards and charts alone would not solve the worst symptoms on the ODD list unless the child was easy to begin with, which kids suspected of ODD never are. Therapists and psychiatrists are usually averse to suggesting firmer measures than charts etc, but their advice is not for everyone. It takes a balance of very firm discipline and positive support to improve difficult tendencies like the ODD list displays at ages as advanced as over five years old for ANY child with these tendencies-disorder or not.

What sort of discipline have the therapist and psychiatrist approved, and what have you used? For how long? If you have gone light on discipline because of her other diagnosis and doctor advice, a book on raising spirited kids may really help with the ODD tendencies, which really are just strong-willed defiant behaviors. How these "spirited child" methods jibe with her ADHD is for you to decide.

***Added. Rewards can vary. My kids get different "incentives" for things, and are happy with "extra trip to park, extra time with me", whatever. My daughter is getting her ears pierced when she gets her current Violin book completed. She got a journal for getting through her first year's math book (homeschool) She's been asking for years for the pierced ears.

What CANNOT be whimsical and varying is discipline. It needs to be firm and consistent and calmly doled as a result of THEIR behavior (not your anger) after ONE warning (in boot camp phase until this is put in check). It's the core, and the "rewards" are the icing. The rewards shouldn't drive behavior in a home that is always happy and positive. The discipline that is CONSISTENT AND TO BE RECKONED WITH is the major deterrent from the bad behavior, and dealing in that way prevents the behavior and causes right habits. I rarely discipline my kids now at 6, 4 and 3 because I was diligent from ages 1 to 3. But they occasionally need a firm few days, when behavior starts to slide. They all have drastically different personalities, and my third was/is extremely difficult, but it works. Your daughter will need MORE consistency, if things have gone off the rails and you are suspecting ODD. Discipline absolutely DOES work unless kids have some sort of severe disorder where they cannot comprehend discipline (but that's debatable-my cousin's son was diagnosed with ADHD and never disciplined form age five. By age 8 he was OFF THE RAILS and everyone was scared for him. His dad lost partial custody and he had to conform to the FULL TIME discipline in his mom and step-dads house, and he's like a new kid one year later, Sweetest kid you'll ever meet and it's doubtful he really had a disorder.)

AGAIN, if discipline has no effect, there my be a rare medical reason it fails, but sounds like you have hope by traditional means. Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson is great. So is the show The World's Strictest Parents-free episodes online-but she may be a bit young for their measures-it's more teen oriented.

my son actually has aspergers, adhd and odd and we do use a chart system at home, school and daycare. If you have an ipad, iphone or any other apple device there is a program that is also accessible via the web that helps not only create a chart (checklist) for the child but also allows for creating rewards and makes it a game of sorts so the child can see their chores - get points when they do the chore and then they get to cash the points in for a reward. the website is www.highscorehouse.com and while it would be great if the children did what they should without being told that is just not the case with adhd kids.... they get distracted very easily. so with that being said our chores for j are the "normal" everyday chores like brush teeth, put clothes in clothes hamper, clean up dishes after eathing, etc. yes these are things kids should do without being told once they get 7, 8 and older however kids with aspergers and/or adhd have to do things repetitively and have it "in their face" so to speak. rewards we allow j to "purchase" are things like 100 points he can get a new $5 game for his ipad or 250 points he can pick out a movie at the theater or for 50 points he can choose a meal one night (since j hates veggies) which by the way eating all his vegetables without a fuss is another "chore" we make all the chores worth 1 point except like the chore "good at school" is worth 10 points. and you either get a check which gives you all the points are you get an X which gives you no points.

In the beginning I had to remind J daily to do it however after two weeks I no longer reminded but set a clock timer and 30 minutes before bedtime the timer goes off and if the necessary chores were not done then i make j do them (brush teeth etc.) however he does not get credit for them... after a few times of this now J is very good and doing his chores and making sure to mark them off as he wants those points to buy things... he no longer gets toys EVER except on birthday or christmas unless he earns the points to get a toy and then there is a cap on the amount 500 points is $50 for a game (wii, dsi, etc) or toy of his choice.

hope this helps and good luck... I will say it is not going to be easy - it is very trying and every day is a new battle sometimes but there is hope just keep the faith and your welcome to reach out to me if you need a sounding board.

good luck
D.

Riley J, I wish I had had this response 30 years ago when I was trying to raise my ADHD daughter! Extremely insightful!

i was told my 8 yr old son has adhd and he does almost everything your daugther does with him the chart doesnt work. They have him on adhd medacation but says he has a problem that goes deeper then adhd so i also half to give him a 1/2 colonidine with it and that seams to claim him down in he dont act out as much i looked up a sight that might help you out some http://www.austinchildguidance.org/for-parents/parenting-... hope this helps some

Hello...I know my step son has this issue also. A few things we have tired that seem to work well for him is #1 cleaning, especially the bathrooms, but he has to do it by himself. #2 Another we do is physical punishment. We make him do things like wall sits, mountain climbers, jumping jacks. This one really worked for my son. #3 One that works for us is that he has to sit at the kitchen table with nothing to do. No homework, no tv, nothing he just sits there.