Modern Feminism - I Just Don't Get It...

To me feminism equals women having choices. Most SAHM's I know are at home by choice, whereas I know many working mom's who work because their husbands insist they work, despite the fact that they would rather be home with their kids.

I love all of these responses. I disagree with Julie G today (sorry!) but I think that her response prompted a lot of good thoughts. Great thread!

I have no clue what you mean by modern feminist. I haven't read feminist theory in a good 10 years.

It use to be that feminism was about making the private public. We've accomplish a bit on this front, supporting and better helping abused women, etc. But feminism failed, if you ask me, when it decided to allow the public to be as it was. I honestly have no desire to work in a world constructed by and for men. Leaning in at a table with terms constructed by men cannot serve equality. Until we actually discuss making things equal, making women's women equal, women will always be oppressed by this system. Women's work is underpaid, under-respected, etc. There are no sick days, paid vacations, etc.

I do not hire cleaning companies, etc. because I refuse to exploit poor women. Women's freedom cannot and shouldn't come on the back of poor women. Jobs without sick days aren't jobs. Cleaning women, CNAs, etc get no such benefits. Instead, they get fired if they miss work.

The system is messed up. To be a career women, I have to exploit other women. No thank you. That isn't feminism, that's capitalism trying to convince us that the male dominate world is the only way to view things.

Wow Julie G. I have to say that I completely disagree with your assessment here. If you do not want to work in a world constructed by men, you might be informed that MANY, MANY woman work in Corporate America and do just fine. Is it always equal? Of course not. But it IS up to women to change the things that aren't fair... We NEED more women in leadership positions. This is how change happens instead of sitting on our laurels and complaining about how the world has wronged us.

I am sorry, but I don't understand how paying a woman for honest work is exploiting her. Exploitation would be if you forced her to do the same work without any pay. How is this different from hiring someone to do your yard work, pool maintenance, or home repairs?

Jobs without sick days are most certainly jobs...just crappy jobs. Do you realize that most minimum wage workers including waiters and cashiers do not get sick days? If they do not come in to work, they do not get paid...period.

To me, feminism is having the ability to choose my own destiny without conforming to outdated societal standards. If I want to be a career woman...I can. If I choose to be a SAHM, then that's OK today. It is about not limiting ourselves because of our gender. I admire strong, independent women. I also don't think that taking your clothes off makes you stronger. I am much more likely to admire women that aspired to great things and became Supreme Court Justices, Astronaunts, Engineers, etc...

Julie G - please rethink your answer. Our nanny isn't exploited! She is college educated and picked this job bc it's better paying and conditions than her office options. And she gets more paid vacation than I do and way more than my husband! She gets her own days plus when we go away. I think she got about 6 weeks last year... How is she more exploited than a man working retail for low pay or doing yard work? And why is ok for your husband to get paid "a big salary" under your socialistic way of thinking?? Is it bc he has certain education and skills? You really should stay in your house and give away his extra earnings instead of buying or building bigger if you don't want to be hypocritical. Finally, I know for a fact I make more than some men I work with despite shorter hours bc I'm a working mom. My experience allows me to be paid more.

Sorry. Not answering question but really offended.

I agree with what you said. Feminism should be about choice. Any choice. And I guess we have to figure men in show biz also show off their bodies... Not a fan but it does seem to go both ways.

She's not a feminist, she's just clueless and snooty.

Feminism is about having equal opportunities, regardless of gender. Actually, I think some are starting to say "equalism", because it's not about putting someone down so you can climb up or feel more important (what your friend is doing), it's about being able to be a working mom or SAHM or to not be a parent, to have equal pay, etc. A true feminist thinks a man is strong if he chooses to be a stay-at-home-dad., etc.

As for the sex thing - there IS a rational backlash against what's called "slut shaming". If a guy sleeps with 2 women in a month, he's a stud; if a woman does it, she's a slut. It's not fair and destructive. Choosing to highlight your sexuality - it's the choice that's the key, I think, and not being shamed for it.

You have progressive feminist and traditional feminist. Traditional feminists believe that a woman can be anything they want without barriers of discrimination. What that means is if you want to be a firefighter they don't get to laugh you out of the room. It does not mean you are handed the job because you are female. If you cannot physically do the job that isn't discrimination any more than it would be discrimination to say that physically weak man can't do the job.

Progressive feminists think you should get the firefighter job because they don't have a high enough percentage of women. If more homes burn down no worries.

Your friend is a progressive feminist. They only see value in choices they see as valuable. Staying at home and being happy makes them question their choices and they don't like it so they say that choice is wrong, they look down on it.

Oh and J. G, ten years ago my cleaning lady made 50 an hour, what was your rich husband making back then?

Short answer: there are LOTS of different forms of feminism, so if you were to wish to use the label for yourself, you can surely find a type of feminism which fits your values.

For example, I do consider myself a feminist--which for me means I am very aware of how we have been taught to value only work with a paycheck attached to it. Caring for one's own children and cleaning one's own house has never been paid work, so our society has considered it not to be valuable. It also have been historically done by women, so some feminists will explain it not being valued by saying it's because it doesn't have a paycheck while others will say it's not valued because it is often done by women. Personally, I have great respect for any one (male or female) who takes care of young children fulltime and does the million things needed to keep a household running. I do not have the temperament to do it, nor do I have the option because I'm the main wage-earner. If anything, that makes me respect those who do it even more.

My feminism doesn't require everyone doing the same tasks. It means everyone, male and female, rich and poor, of all races and ethnicities, being treated and treating others with dignity and respect. How many times on this site have we seen messages from women who say that their husband/ boyfriend puts them down verbally or tries to control all the money or makes decisions about family matters without consulting with them? That's disrespect, and I think you and I would agree that the relationship is neither good nor healthy.

My feminism also means that people can choose to wear clothing (appropriate for the setting) which they choose. I'm personally not comfortable with revealing clothes, and I value being able to dress accordingly. I also would prefer my daughter not wear revealing clothes because it sets her up for being judged by her appearance rather than her (very good) brain or heart. As Mira said, it's the right to wear a bikini or a burka without facing harassment. Strength isn't really the issue--it's confidence in being oneself AND not being harmed by others for what one does wear.

Anyway, I can understand your frustration. It actually frustrates me to see the word being used in such a limited way that it hides the reality of what feminism offers every one. There are plenty of male feminists. Thanks for the question, and I hope my long answer was useful.

Feminism is a word. It means very different things to different people. Your friend is using that word to talk about what's meaningful to her. You don't have to agree with her, but that doesn't mean you have to be an anti-feminist. And you could think about supporting your friend just because she's your friend, even if the two of you disagree.

For me personally, if someone finds fulfillment from being a SAHM, wonderful. But it's just as legitimate for a woman to be the breadwinner, with her husband (or wife) staying home with the kids. If someone finds fulfillment twerking, and wearing revealing clothes and all that, then fine, if it works for them. You can be a feminist in super-revealing clothes, and you can be a feminist in a burka, as long as what you're doing feels feminist, and feels empowering, to you.

I have a world of respect for SAHMs, but it's not for everyone. Some women would hate it and be bad at it. Other women don't have a breadwinner, or someone who wins enough bread, so it's not a universal option. I have a very hard time, personally, imaging myself just letting my husband make most of the decisions, but for another couple, if that truly works for them, it's their business.

And, I could not possibly care less what Rihanna, or any celebrity, does with her time. These people are ridiculously overpaid. The whole cult of celebrity is a sorry state of affairs. But for me, feminism should be about freedom. To wear a burka or a bikini. Or anything in between.

Right now, there are a lot of feminist women speaking out against the whole trend, I guess, of young men gang-raping young women and posting videos of it on the Internet. That, to me, feels like a more meaningful struggle than Rihanna's clothes, or lack thereof. But that's just me.

There are feminists who participate in SlutWalks and who fight slut shaming. There are feminists who support women's right to wear veils/headscarves. And these are often the same women.

For me personally, I am a feminist, but I honestly get a little tired of women this, women that, all the time. I think it's more important to fight oppression and inequality in whatever guise. It shouldn't start to matter only if it affects women. But that's just me. My feminism (and its limits) are no more or less legitimate than anybody else's.

I suggest she's not a feminist. Her way of thinking, talking, and acting is what give feminists a bad name.

In response to Julie G. How does your stand to not hire women help women? You still believe the world is run by men even tho there are women in responsible positions who are changing the way we live. I suppose you would not support having a woman for president because the r rest of the candidates are men? You won't hire a housekeeper, pay her good wages

and provide time off because other housekeepers aren't paid well with time off.

True, not all women have power. Does that mean we don't recognize and support those who do have power? You have the choice to be a part of the change by paying fair wages yourself. You can hire from the service and pay the standard wage and be helping that woman gain recognition and power. Change Iis a process. You're saying that unless all women are equalto all men you're not participating. The woman who only has skills worth a low wage deserves to suffer by not having a job. How about the many women who work menial jobs so that they can get better jobs? You would deny them the ability to improve their lives and the lives of others.

I hear you saying lets stay stuck where we are because I don't approve of where we came from.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

ETA: Oh Julie G., that makes me so sad that you see the world this way. You don't know what you're missing out on by refusing to play an active part in "the system." The world today isn't the world of "Mad Men." Times change; society and culture change. My aunt took over my uncle's brokerage firm after he died and she built it FAR beyond what he ever did. Back in the 70s when she first started working with him she had to claw her way through it, but it paid off big time. She's a highly respected CEO in the Twin Cities, a benevolent employer, a fantastic mother and grandmother, and overall one of my favorite women on earth. Totally inspiring.

ETA: Bravo, Christy! Nail on the head.

I consider myself a feminist.

I'm a stay-at-home-mom. I was formerly a professor, I have a terminal degree, but I gave up my career to care for my kids. I love my new job and have no regrets. I wasn't defined by my career or title when I was working and I'm not defined by the title of SAHM now. Having knowledge of who you are outside of societal labels is a big part of feminism.

I do not consider the money my husband brings home to be 'his'. It's ours. He could not earn it without my help, and because of that we have equal say in all financial matters. I do not think you can be empowered or a feminist if you do not understand your own value. I am very thankful for my husband's contribution and he is very thankful for my contribution to our household. Equality is also big part of feminism.

I work hard to make sure both my daughter and my son are exposed to more than gender stereotypes. My husband is already teaching my little girl about electronic circuitry (he's an engineer) and loves to share his love of science and math with her, and because he is a great Daddy, he also lets her paint his nails when she plays beauty shop. She also dresses her little brother up in jewelry and fairy wings. Another big part of feminism is letting go of any societal expectations of right and wrong behavior for girls (and boys).

I'm not so naive that I think my daughter will never go through any rebellious time when she wants to wear less clothing than I would prefer and listen to music I don't like, among other things. Feminism aside, being a mom is about letting your children grow up and make their own choices while trying to be a good compass for them. I'm not going to focus solely on lessons in morality when I'm pretty sure if I can get her to accept and love herself she will also respect herself enough to live a life that would make her happy (which would make me happy as well).

I tend to think of myself as more of a humanist than feminist.
For me, ideally feminism is about being allowed equal access and being allowed choice.

I make no excuses for my choices in life; if I wanted to be a player in a bigger picture, I would, regardless of who was playing. That is not my personality type, but I don't blame my not playing because of who is or isn't in the game.

I love being a stay at home mom. For years I worked as a preschool teacher and as a nanny, which is a domestic job situation. Some people might look at domestic work as exploitative; I would argue that there are many women who are doing such work in situations they control. I wrote my own contracts with families and here in Portland, there are many female housecleaning teams who are paid well and negotiate a reasonable wage for themselves. I know this because these women and I worked in the same households, with the same families. Historically, domestic workers have indeed been financially exploited; that said, within the industry, there are many of us who have chosen to take our work situations into our own hands.

I can't tell you about modesty or anything else. We live in a culture which tends to value and pay attention to the sensational. I don't think being naked is 'girl power' any more than being dressed dignifies a person. It is in our own individual actions, in how we treat others to treat us, in how we respect ourselves-- these are the things which distinguish a woman.

I will also add, though, that I don't think men spend much time worrying about what other men are wearing or doing or what they are 'representing'. Aside from generational quips from my folks, what I often hear most from men is that one guy or another is a class A douchebag.... and then they move on. Personally, I like to get along with others but I don't care what my supposed 'feminism' looks like to any other woman or person. We do what's best for our family and I do what is best for myself.

Overall, the term 'feminist' is often bandied about by people who want to use it in a way which suits their own purposes, and this is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. Instead of yoking our own statements to feminism or any one ideology, it might just be good to own one's' opinions, period. No need to link it to something bigger.

Those things your friend believes in are not feminism. This is a common misperception these days with a lot of women. I agree with you on both of those examples. Have you tried to debate your friend and get her to see things in a different way? A feminist is believing women have the same rights as men and should be treated equally. You can do what you want in life. You can vote. You can be treated as an equal. You are not property. You can choose to be in a "male dominated profession". You can choose. You can most definitely be a stay at home mom and be a feminist!

feminism isn't a single homogenous opinion lump. feminism is made up of people who believe in women's equality, and that is different for everyone.
i don't consider the attitude you're describing to be 'modern feminism.' like all movements, feminism has grown and changed. back when i was a girl, feminism meant aping men- men's suits and ties, no smiling, being 'businesslike'. the pendulum got pushed WAY far in the other direction. it was unattractive, but that's how trends move forward, by swinging themselves along, and it's only the middle bits that are actually fun to be part of.
i consider 'modern feminists' to be anyone who agrees that women have worth equal to men, and the freedom to express themselves as best suits their natural talents and inclinations. if that's a 'traditional' role and they relish it, more power to 'em. if it means eschewing family life and going for a high-powered type A job, rock it out. the only expression of feminism with which i've disagreed is when women decide they don't want to work, can't commit to a worthy spouse, but produce children who then have to be supported by taxpayers.
i call that lazyass leechism.
but put any 3 feminists in a room and you're going to get 6 opinions on just what feminism is, exactly.
so, why do you judge all 'modern feminists' by this one chick?
khairete
S.

I have to pipe in about the cleaning woman thing -- if a woman has no skills other than cleaning, she needs to make a living somehow. Denying her employment isn't helping her.

To me, feminism is about being able to have choices, and that includes being able to show off your sexy bod if you have one. On the other hand, I don't exactly think of twerking in a see-through dress as "empowerment."

I will say that displays of sexuality by either gender is normal and imo healthy in young people in their prime. I vaguely recall my sexuality -- it was kind of fun.

My husband and I have more traditional roles...he works, I am a SAHM. I can assure you that personally I have "true equality" with my husband although I do not bring home a paycheck. I can also say that although I am a SAHM, cooking, cleaning and shopping bring me no joy.

I am also not sure why you think that a woman that stays at home has her husband make most of the decisions even if she agrees with him. Most of my friends are SAHMs and we all consider ourselves complete equals to our husbands and share jointly in major decisions.

Perhaps your friend is simply jealous. After all, I could certainly work if I wanted to but being an empowered modern woman, I choose to stay home:).

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1895
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

1. I agree with the poster who said your friend just sounds like a b*#ch. What does to matter to her that her MIL is a SAHM? Until women support ALL women and women's choices, things will not change. I do believe that the hand that rocks the cradle...yadda yadda BUT it's all about CHOICES.
Equal opportunity, equal pay, equal treatment...equal everything!
2. Rihanna? Really? What does that have to do with anything?

Julie G--all I can tell you is 'nice work if you can get it.' But at what cost?
Better cross all kinds of places off of your list of unequal treatment of women is your barometer of worthiness. Must be nice to sit and deem it too tough to play in the boys club. Really? Just remember if it's not your money? It's his money. Ain't no equality in that.
If women would SUPPORT other women, the world would be a better place. Why can't you hire someone, pay them well AND give them fair compensation?

There are a couple of things going on here. One is a battle of opinions, and one is a movement. There will always be somebody who thinks that her way of doing things is right-er than somebody else's way. Even you are expressing that your views might be slightly better than hers. We do what works for us, but we also speak up/fight for the right to do that without penalty. What we don't always get is that having the right to do something means also having the right NOT to do that something and even to choose to do something altogether different. Moving forward, we need to be honest with ourselves: Do we endorse the right to choose or just the right to be like us?

I don't speak in terms of Feminist and such, because I don't like applying those labels. It is whatever it is, no matter what we call it, and the argument shouldn't be about the name. Throughout history, everybody has taken a formal stand on what a woman should be doing and what it means to be a woman, most notably in ways that women themselves didn't like. This whole "feminist movement" is a monster that was created by those acts. I don't get to disparage the movement while benefitting from it, so I just do what I feel led to do and let others do the same. Whatever one woman has to do to be a woman for herself is her call. It's her lesson to learn, and I can't tell her that she is wrong. The only exception for me is when I see someone working directly against what she says that she wants. Even then, I don't say that it's wrong, I just help her to see that it's not necessarily taking her in the direction that she wants to go. It's up to her to decide how to proceed from there.

PS. I don't like this from your post:

"Perhaps a woman doesn’t have to have true equality with her husband to be happy. Perhaps cooking, cleaning, shopping, child-rearing is what brings her joy while her husband relaxes after working all day. Perhaps she likes having her husband make most of the decisions because she actually agrees with him."

This choice of words might be why your friend takes such a stand. We come in all shapes and colors and personalities, some more outspoken than others. Neither is right or wrong. We just have to have partners--if we want partners--who can complement those personalities. This is why I don't like labels, especially without agreed-upon definitions. A lot of women believe that they can have the life that you've described here AND STILL have "true equality" with their partners, and having someone use this terminology can be a setback if expressed on and associated with the "right" platform. Sometimes the choice of words is a trigger.

When I hear of someone "having" to do something to prove something about her womanhood or feminine power or whatever, I consider that for whatever her reasons are, she felt that need and likely needed to prove it to herself, as well. And then, I just hope that her mission was accomplished and she was able to get the right amount of satisfaction. I don't judge her choice, because that opens the door for others to judge mine.

I think there's a long held misunderstanding when it comes to feminism. Feminism isn't about being just like men. It isn't about equal ability, because the fact is men and women aren't equal ability wise. Feminism is about equal WORTH. Men do not carry higher intrinsic value than women just because they are men. Feminists believe that the world should reflect that.

ETA: Sadly, modern feminism has evolved to the point where men are now seen as bumbling idiots who cannot navigate without a woman holding their hand, and women who choose not to work are seen as lazy, lacking in intellect, ability or both.

As for Rhianna, I find it fascinating that anyone would point to an image like that and say "women empowerment." The more demand created for those images, the more women are exploited. Images like that further create a demand for human trafficking and even exploitation of MEN (if y'all don't think that the media putting images like those out there isn't exploitation of men as well as women, you're dead wrong).

I don't think your friend is a feminist, for the reasons many mentioned below. Feminism is not about being judgmental. It's also not about modesty or lack thereof.

To me, a modern feminist is someone who works to ensure equality for herself and others. In my life this means:
- hiring the help I need at my house and paying a fair wage
- at my work (male dominated field), mentoring the younger women to be confident and have the courage to ask for what they deserve (promotions when positions are available, raises when appropriate).
- also at my work, when I have input into hiring, if the chosen candidate is a woman, I make sure the salary offer is equal to that of males hired into similar positions.
- respecting my SAHM AND SAHD friends.

Feminism? I think that word was hijacked a while back by women who don't like women who want to be in a more traditional role or politics. I hate to see women cutting down other women.

I work in a male dominated industry. I am the first female HR manager my company has ever had. This company's HQ is in Mexico. So, I guess I'm a trail blazer in that aspect.

I encourage my daughter to be the best she can be and do want she wants to do. I do believe women should have an education and be able to support themselves. I also believe if a woman wants to be a SAHM that is fantastic. I did that for several years and I'm glad I was able to do that. It was my choice.

As for how some women in entertainment dress? I don't like it especially when you see 5, 6 7 year old girls trying to dress like that. But that is a parenting issue. Like one poster said below about Madonna, I loved what she was doing. She was sexy and fun. To me, there is nothing sexy about a woman showing everything she has. Sometimes, showing less is more sexy but its her choice.

Julie G - your post I found sad. Not everyone can make a million dollars but everyone needs to eat. Think about that!

I consider myself a feminist. As to your friend's comments:
1) If a woman knows all of her options and chooses to be a SAHM, then more power to her. My mom was a SAHM when we were young, because that's what SHE wanted to do. She also made it clear to us that we should do whatever made US happy, whether that was marrying or not, having kids or not, having a career or not. She also made it clear that even if we chose to follow in her footsteps, that we should have the education and skills necessary to have a career in case we ever found the need to be self-supporting. She had seen too many women she cared about stay with men they didn't want to be with because they felt they had no other option.

2) Rihanna's body belongs to HER, and she should be able to adorn and display it in any way that SHE likes.

What does that mean, '...she's a SAHM and chooses to be a partner to her husband.'?

I'm a great partner to my husband, and I'm not a SAHM.

Anyway, sounds like she's trying to be all aggressively militant fem, but has got the wrong end of the stick. You can be a woman however you want - whether it's displaying your tatas in public, or baking your husband and 'head if the household' cakes. Just as long as it's your choice.

Also feminism means equality for women. I've come across men who have made assumptions about my potential because I'm a woman, and because of their attitudes have been denied the right to progress professionally. I took matters into my own hands and succeeded, but discrimination is still very real.

What I got from Julie G's comment is actually pretty true. Those of us who've been poor as adults see that.

Those company's that do hire women to do menial labor don't offer them benefits of any kind. They pay them the most minimum wage they can and keep the rest for themselves.

So if they charge $30 per hour they're basically pocketing over $20 per HOUR and that woman who is doing the actual labor is working her hiney off doing an exceptional job. AND if she is sick or her kids are sick she gets fired since they have people waiting in line to take her job.

When I hire someone to do work for me I simply hire them directly and pay them cash. That way I'm not paying someone to exploit someone like this.

I think that she was just saying that in some areas we still have a long ways to go.

I think that if a family is struggling to make ends meet and the wife is fully capable of working then she should be out there finding a job. Also if a woman doesn't have an education where she can be gainfully employed then she should be able to do that.

Women never know when their husbands will die or become disabled. They'll be grateful to have an education and skills that will support their family if they need to.

I'm currently reading a book called Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy that discusses this topic thoroughly. It's fascinating, and very well written. Check it out.

I completely agree with you and have had the same questions!

Feminism and women's equal rights are 2 different things. Most of the world knows that. Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with who your household income belongs to, or your choices for being a SAHM whether you are educated or not, or even posting a Rihanna video.

Don't confuse feminism as situations where someone can challenge your well being or take something away from you. Simply put, feminism is simply the celebration of a woman, on any level, by any means, and her contribution to the mind, spirit and body towards her world. Empowering women isn't a feministic issue. Its an equal rights issue.

The lack of feminism isn't a huge issue here in the States. Equal rights is, but feminism isn't.

So your friend the feminist is a wannabe feminist. She thinks she's a feminist but she isn't.

I'll hold my tongue a bit on equal pay for women. Depending on your education, intellect, manners, leadership qualities and the ability to get along with others, equal pay is out there.