Help on a Discipline Question

Hi S.,

First I would like to say thank you for asking this question. My son is five and it is like you told my story. I read the responses you have gotten so far and most make sense. I think that Beth had said something about being tired. I know that there are days when my son comes home and crashes. It makes sense too. Someone (can't remember who) also said something about the difference in environments. He was always with me and now his day is spent with other children. I guess that could take a toll too.
My husband and I have been trying to reward him for the times he is doing good rather than punish him for the bad times. We sat down with him and wrote a chore list. Everyday he has to brush his teeth, feed the cat, put his dirty clothes in the hamper, pick up the toys in the living room, and go to be at 8:00 pm without any trouble. He picked out these chores and we agree that they ok for his age. He gets paid after two weeks and on top of the positive reinforcement, we get to teach him how to save money. If he misses one chore he does lose his money for the day, and that is harder on me than him, but he understands that it is his responsibility to do his chores.
Well I hope I could help as much as the other posts. You got some great advice and so did I. Thanks
T.

I have found that the thing my kids like the least is to be away from the action. So when they are being sassy, not listening, whinning I send them to their room until they can get themselves under control. They are expected to talk to me about thier behavior and apologize as well. I find that with my older daughter, their is usually a problem that she is having and she is taking her anger, stress or frustration out on me. After she has gone to her room and gotten herself under control she will then talk to me about what is bothering her.

What happened to a good old fashioned spanking?

When my son started to ignore me and not responding to me when I talk to him, I did the same thing back to him. That way he knows how it feels and doesn't do it to me anymore.

I HIGHLY recommend taking Love and Logic classes. Here are the list of classes the local Love and Logic instructor is teaching: http://www.keriparentcoach.com/447486.html Tell her T. sent you. You can also call the Love and Logic company at 800-588-5644 to get the contact info for people who teach classes in your area (I just called and a real person answered right away and was very helpful). I also went to a local Proactive Parenting seminar and enjoyed it. check out www.proactiveparenting.net

The Love and Logic approach is all about tough love--being firm and consistent in letting children suffer the natural (logical) consequences of their actions, while doing so in a very gentle and loving way, having true empathy in your heart. My mom parented this way, and I really appreciate my upbringing. I feel she was a very effective and loving parent who helped prepare us for the real world.

If classes aren't available near you, check out some Love and Logic materials at the local library for free or buy them at www.loveandlogic.com. Here are some I recommend: a seminar on DVD "Painless Parenting for the Preschool Years," the book "Parenting with Love and Logic." They also have some great CDs full of wonderful advice and real-life applications that you can listen to in the car while driving.

I agree that Love & Logic has been the most effective in my blended-family. It helps you to not get emotionally strained when the kids are just trying to play the control game. Here are some examples of what I use from it for my 7 y.o. daughter:

* If she argues about something (candy, chores, etc) I say "I love you too much to argue with you" pretty much over and over again like a broken record, not letting myself get emotional.

* If she refuses to help out I say "I only let kids who help out/are respectful/responsible/etc enjoy treats/tv - video games/ friends/ etc" that way she knows I'm serious about if she doesn't hep out or change her attitude then when it comes time for her to ask for something, I repeat that same sentence and it occurs to her that what I say I mean, and she does not get what she wanted that time.

* If she's been misbehaving at school/grandma's/etc, then she knows that her privileges will be gone.

One time in kindergarten, she was soo rude to her teacher that it resulted in a call home to me during that day. When my daughter got home, she saw that her ENTIRE room was cleaned out! EVERYTHING but the bed and dresser was gone. And she had to earn it back little by little with a better attitude.

Hopefully these tips from the mamas will help you out - you can do it without the stress! It's just his way of learning who has control... much better for him to learn while he's young than as a teen!

What Clare said about the soap sounds a lot like that episode of Nanny 911 and she said something like you're putting a toxin in your kids mouth and making them respect that and not you.
I pretty much ignore bad, attention seeking behavior. Do everything you can to praise good behavior when you see it. I'm not saying to reward with toys or candy, just verbal and physical (hug/high-five) reinforcement.
As a teacher and mother of a pre-schooler I think that if they cry when in trouble then all is not lost!
Also, maybe instead of being vague on "if you're good" maybe a point system to go or not go so it's warning him. I would try at all costs to take him to the practice, I think you're right in thinking it might help him out.

Hi S.,

Well it is a bit old fashioned but there have been times in our house for sassing and using the word 'stupid' that our kids have had their mouth washed out with soap. I take a toothbrush and put a dap of liquid soap on it and brush their mouth. They get to rinse as long as they like, must apologize to me and make the request in a respectful manner.

It is very effective.
Good luck,
C. W
www.MyHomeCottageBiz.com
Supplemental Income Ideas for Families

Hi S., My daughter will be 9 on saturday, my son will be 6 in 3 weeks and my boyfriends daughter that lives with us is 12. We sat down and had a 'family meeting'. We went over 'house rules' (ex. be kind to each other in words and actions, do what you are told the first time, no whinning/crying...) and told them they would get 2 warnings, if after the 2 warnings they did not stop doing whatever, or do what we asked, then they would sit in a time out (one minute per their age). But the time out spot was not somewhere comfortable or where they can see the TV...ours is in our short hall, where they sit on the hard floor and look at the closet door in front of them. And they have to sit there quietly or they get time added if they get up or keep crying, etc. I also try to catch them when they are being quiet, and playing nice, or even putting something in the trash (my son was great about just dropping trash on the floor!!) or any good behavior and really telling them how great they are being and how happy they are making me. That has really helped. And my boyfriend and I try to spend a couple minutes with each of them every day alone...he talks to each of them while I'm cooking or cleaning up from dinner, and I tuck each one in at night and lay with them and ask them how their day was. This is the special time that we have and I can hear how they are feeling and what's going on. Whatever you decide to do, be consistant with it. We tried taking stuff away and threatening but then half the time we couldn't remember if they lost their crayons for that night or not! So this is working for us, I hope you find something that will work for you and good luck!

Hi S.....there are lot of suggestions for you and i'd like to add one more for you - from my blog: http://lylahledner.blogspot.com/2008/09/moms-help-911-swe...

hope the thoughts here help! lylah

Threats of consequences far in advance do little to make an impression in the here and now for young kids. The sports should not be a punishment/reward item - it should be because it is a good social environment and a healthy habit to form. Any outs you put on that you are doing for yourself not for his benefit. I suggest you look at your behavior honestly - and role model what you want to see your children become. Our children are mirrors of us. They must be taught to make conscious choices about their behavior and have to be responsible for it because of natural consequences - not a toy taken away because he is sassing. Time outs are sometimes necessary if anyone needs to calm down - but when he is required to take one maybe anyone else involved in the situation should as well - and remember to talk about it after the calming down has happened so the same things don't happen over and over with no resolution. Good luck.

You will also enjoy:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=29Qhmp...

K.

Hi S. You need to remember that children at his age only know what they have done wrong for one minute per year of age so by telling him if he is not good and will miss practice on Saturday wont be effective. Children at his age live in the hear and now. So what I would suggest is when he talks back to you get down to his eye level and very kind with out any emotion say to him "why are you speaking to mommy like that" or "I can hear by the sound of your voice that you are not happy can you tell mommy why you feel that way" I know with kids sometimes they are so hungry for attention that when they are not getting positive attention they start acting out in a negative way and to the child they see that even though its negative actions that cause attention to them they just want to be seen and so they continue acting out with negative behavior because they are getting attention. So when you see him acting out instead of saying go to your room or telling him NO ask him what he is feeling right then and there. Children are people too and sometimes we just want to be heard. Maybe get a calendar for him to put up somewhere at his eye level and he gets to mark (with stickers or what ever is fun for him) every day that was a good day. Also mark down some special time that you and him get to have on certain days (like mommy reads to you for 30 min. or mommy and me ice cream day) and that way he can see what is coming up and keep track and if he is naughty on a day well talk to him about why there will be no sticker on that day and explain to him at his eye level why the sticker can not go on that day (example: today you had a tough day with your teacher at school (talk about what he did wrong that day) and I know your a good boy and I know tomorrow your going to do better like mommy knows you can and we will put that sticker up there tomorrow because mommy and daddy know that your going to have a better day at school tomorrow and give him a hug) Keep up with the promises of ice cream or reading because the idea is to get him to see he doesn't have to get attention by being naughty he gets it all the time anyways. And kids love to have our attention all the time. Hope that helps good luck.

1,2,3 magic was what was used on my older kids

Love & Logic was the thing for my younger

I've just recently run into a similar problem with my 7 year old. She complains and whines and sometimes gives me attitude whenever she has to do anything that doesn't have to do with playing. I've started reading this book called "Have a New Kid by Friday" by Dr. Kevin Leman and I've already started to see a few changes in my daughter. It's a very good book and he explains a lot about why children do the things they do and what you can do to change those things without making yourself crazy in the process!!!

I certainly commend your attempts to help your 6 year old. I have one as well, who loves to "butte heads" and is extremely independent. We have put him in a time out - but he loves being by himself which makes sense since he doesn't make friends well either - so that doesn't work. What we have found is taking away his favorite things. Your son must have some sort of favorite toy, activity, etc. I have found if tell him he will not go out on Halloween in his favorite costume he will have to stay in his room or we take away his crayons and books, the thought devastates him. He immediately seems to change his behavior. Boys mature a lot later than girls, plain and simple. My 4th grader didn't want to learn how to ride his bike til 6.5 years old until finally he woke up one day and asked to ride it without training wheels. I thought he'd be on those training wheels til he went to high school! I guess if you are a Type A mom like me, it's frustrating since I was the star student and when your kids are not what you anticipated, it is difficult to witness. Also I have rearranged my work and school schedule to visit and volunteer in the first grade classroom in the mornings for an hour or two. I've been able to seen other children who are either ahead or behind and helped them with their reading and writing and also observe my son in a multitude of different social environments. I've witnessed who and what "sets him off" and have mentioned to the teacher that maybe we should rearrange this group, etc. It's still a work in progress but I've seen improvement on his behavior - less tantrums, less stress on his end. For my son, it's a new school, new teacher, new kids to get to know, all new and sometimes a bit overwhelming. With me in attendance, he feels a bit more comfortable and he has told me, less stress. A good example of his antics is yesterday I gave him a box of crayons to bring to school since I noticed he had none in his desk. His teacher told me later on that he proceeded to pull them out immediately at the start of class and start coloring and flat out refused to put them away. Finally after three attempts, he had to give them to the teacher, lost them again which tells me the first box was confiscated for a similar reason. When I got to class around 10am, he had already broken some behavior (resistence) rules the teacher has set up in the classroom by defying her. This child loves to color, he could color for 12 hours per day. He was mad at her but she had a job to do. Setting boundaries has helped us and being involved in his struggles has seemed to help, but it's still a struggle. Sports are great, only if he likes it. My son is very head strong and I've spent a fortune on sports for him but if he doesn't like it, he would rather sit with me on the sidelines. Baseball can be boring if they have to wait a long time and depends on the coach. Karate was a bit too much since the instructor expectations vary and some do well like my older child but not the younger one, go with your gut - good luck! Keep me posted!

Dear S.,

Oh Sweetie...that is so hard. And it begins! LOL! I know some very easy ways to stop his bad behavior completely. I have to keep this message short...inna hurry.

Come and do ONE free counseling session with me...just you and your husband (or just you) and his bad behavior will be gone after just one session. Look at my web site (google my name). Gotta run now.

XXOO, J. Fendelman, MC

You may have already thought about this, but I wonder if he is just extra tired? My niece started kindergarten this year also, and she is just exhausted from adjusting to no nap, being actively involved in activities all day, etc. I wonder if an earlier bedtime might help? I know when my daughter is tired, she is so much more of a discipline problem. Hope it gets better for you, and for him!

Lots of times when my kids are being brats instead of yelling at them or punishing them, I say "Do you need a hug?". Usually, they say yes and then tell me why they are acting the way they are. Sometimes, they say "I need some attention." Starting Kindergarten is a really hard change for them. They are not used to having to be quiet and listen for extended periods of time. They need to let out their emotions when they get home. Also, at night when they are in bed, I lie down with them and ask them how things are at school or whatever. That is a time they are usually willing to open up and we can come up with plans together. Sometimes they say things like "You know Mom, You could be a better mother if you were more patient." I have to hold in my laughter. They are right, but it still cracks me up.

Hi S. -

Children don't understand the whole "give them something and then take it away" policy that we, as parents, have resorted to. There are ways to teach children better behavior without resorting to this.

First, sit down and talk with him. Ask him about his behavior - why he is doing it - what it feels like just before he asks out - if he could give it a color, what color would it be?

Sitting side by side gives a child a feeling of being equal. This is the first step in building and maintaining a child's self-esteem. Explain to your child how frustrating it is for you when he acts that way. Believe it or not, he will understand more than you think. Equating your feelings with his feelings - you might find out you share alot more than your actions (you did say you two were alike didn't you??? lol)

It's also important to understand that children are like little sponges and mirrors. First they soak in all the energy around them - positive & negative - and then they reflect it right back at you. That's why the more upset you get - the more he acts out. Unfortunately, young children don't understand why they are acting out. That's why when you ask them why they did something, they often answer - I don't know - because they really don't.

Blessings,

M. M. Ernsberger
Holistic Healthcare Practitioner

I am not much into books about discipline, but I was handed down a book called 123 Magic...I have a very active 7 year old and 4- This book has changed our normally hectic household into one of peace!!! I swear this works and is extremely easy!!

Good Luck!

Dani

I use Love and logic on my two high spirited children. It works wonders! I listen to the cd's in my car while i drive, I also took teh class. www.loveandlogic.com

Be very consistent with your discipline. If you put him in timeout, he stays there for the full amount of time. If he gets up, put him back. Don't relent at all. Any time you don't go thru with any type of discipline, then they feel they can keep up the bad behavior because your techique is not 100%. He wants to see how far he can go with you even unintentially. He is pushing his boundries to see how set they are. Believe it or not, but he feels most secure when the boundries are unmovable so he knows where he stands in his little world.

That is my advice, be consistent in whatever you do. It will take some time, but eventually you will see that it works.

Just one small piece of advice that I've learned over the years: don't use the things that you want to happen as collateral. For instance, if you really think that the sports will help, don't threaten to take it away if he doesn't behave. Then you are both miserable. I sometimes use things that I want my daughter to do to as collateral and it is always a hasty and bad decision. Why take away a slumber party when I was hoping for a night alone with my husband, for instance?

It will make everyone unhappier in the long run.

best of luck,
r.

Have you tried taking everything away. My son got really nasty with me one day and I had it. I had told him no and he said I never do what he wants or give him anything. So I removed everything from his bedroom except his bed and pillow. He had to earn back his quilt I made him for bedtime. he also had to earn back all the rest of his things over the week.

Sit down and make a list of rules with punishments attached. Let him help make the rules and choose the punishments (from your list of suggestions). Then set some positive goals with him and let him choose the reward (from your list of suggestions). Make sure the rules/ goals are specific and have an end date in mind not too far away. Example: Rule: If you talk back, you have to go without (TV, toy, playtime). Asking a question back nicely is okay, but no sass. Goal: If you talk back three times or less Monday through Friday, you can have (ice cream, outing at park) after sports. Then, if a rule is broken, assign the punishment without anger/ yelling/ exasperation in your voice. When a goal is met, give the reward freely and happily, then set the next goal immediately. I found that free spirits do well when they get to make the rules/ goals and choose the punishments/ rewards. Oftentimes, they are harder on themselves than you would be. Good luck!

I always recommend Gordon Neufeld's book Hold onto your kids: Why parents Should Matter More than Peers. It explains why popular discipline methods (like timeout) used nowadays have a NEGATIVE affect on the parent-child relationship. (Also teacher-student relationships)
You are now experiencing the damage from such methods...nothing is working. what's more...he's probably getting much of the same at school. What's worse...is that he is spending more time with peers..risking falling in step/love with them rather than more wise adults...and will look to them for leadership.
The book explains the serious parenting challenges we face in modern life that our predecessors did not...one was the lack of time we actually get to spend with our children. Long distance love relationships are very hard to maintain...I would say that short time relationships are too.
The other is a lack of a true, deep culture and community. We now have marketed pop culture and little connection with our neighboors/people in our daily lives.
Please try to heal the relationship with your son..even if it takes prof help. Behavior Band Aid fix-its will do nothing to prepare your son for internalizng self control...and becoming intrinsically motivated.

Although I am not a mom just yet (about 5 weeks until Dday) I was an elementary teacher and did deal with multiple children in a class at once, some with behavioral issues. I used a program called "1,2,3 Magic for Teachers". It started as a program for parents and you can pick up the book at any bookstore. It is called "1,2,3 Magic for Parents". I do know some people from my school that were using it on their young children and said that they had very good luck with it. Hope this helps.

I have had the same issue with my son when he was younger. I would make him sit in the middle of his bed and he would need to write a paragraph or two on why he is sitting on his bed and how he was going to make things better. Believe me this works! It gives them a chance to cool down and really think about why they are in time out and how they can control their own actions. Hope it works out for you!!

Of all the parenting classes I have taken and books I have read (and I have made the rounds believe me!) I like "love and logic" by far the best. It really is very logical and takes the tension out from between the two of you, preserving your relationship, and puts the ownership for the behavior where it belongs, with the child. We want them to learn the lessons now while the pricetag is cheap.

You can find them www.loveandlogic.com I am sure that they do classes in your area. Here in Tucson they are at some churches and also at some counciling centers. Some schools even practice the techniques. And the speakers are in Phoenix at least once a year for confrences.

Good Luck to you!

J.