Friend with Toddler...making Me Crazy

I have a child who is very strong willed. When at home he is very much disciplined. My other children act nothing like him, and I know it is his personality and smartness. That said, when we are out and about there are things he gets away with that he wouldn't at home, simply because I know what sort of a scene it would cause, and I don't want to inflict that on others. Is it possible that the little girl acts like this, and gets away with it while you are around simply because the mother feels she is saving you from the "worse" reaction? I know you can only make assumptions on what you see, so you really don't know how things are going at home when its just the two of them.

Yes you are being to harsh, you don't get to decide how to parent her child. If its that big of a problem then just don't be a part of her life, otherwise just be there for her and get over it
IMHO

It's hard to tell if you are being too harsh because we aren't there. 2 1/2 is still pretty young and without preschool most kids don't have a huge intereaction with other children at that age.

How about buying Foster and Clines "Love and Logic" Book. Tell your friend that you heard it was GREAT and so you bought it for her..... and if she starts young (like now) with her child she will have the happiest best behaved kid around!

Wow! I'm reading through the responses you have been getting and each person who thinks you are being too harsh is rather harsh and judgemental themselves... funny how that happens.

Here's what I think -
There is only so much you can do for some people. Usually, when children are being raised like this there is one of two reasons - they don't know what to do, or they just don't care what anyone thinks and they are going to do it their way (before anyone jumps on me - I said USUALLY).

If they don't know - she will welcome your advise. I'm guessing she's exhausted! Talking to her could be exactly what she needs - there are going to be many problems she'll have to deal with come Kindergarten if she doesn't get some control now.

If she doesn't care - and it's going to be her way no matter what - then your input will be moot. You need to take care of yourself and your daughter and people like that are just too draining (coming from experience)

As far as interaction goes, I would recommend she seek out a MOPS group or other playgroup with children her little one's age. It will not only give her more friends, but her daughter as well. AND I am NOT recommending YOU find any for her. She needs to take the initiative. (BTW-to the mom who said you should find them for her - that is funny.. since right before that she berated you for trying to act like the gals mother...)

A 2 1/2 yr old should be talking - at least a little bit. She needs to double check that with her pediatrition.

I apologize in advance if other posters find this a bit harsh (to them). I'm a little riled up after reading some of the posts to K..

K. -good luck and God bless. Do what you need to do to stay healthy and happy... leave the rest to God.
C.

there is a good way to offer advise and a bad way. Try something small and see how she takes it. If she is receptive them try something else next time you see her. She will take some advise but not all. You could say something along the lines of "when my dd was small I would ___ and that worked, but all babys are different but it might work for you." and leave it at that. Everyone parents differently and that's ok but it sometimes it's hard to bite your tongue. I feel your pain.

Sure, she and the toddler would benefit from a play group where she can meet friends her own age and the child can have playmates. Encourage her to find a playgroup to attend, or at least go to story times at the library or something.
Yes, constistant meals and snacks are good, but is she being fed? I wouldn't worry quite so much about that if her daughter is eating.
As for discipline? Not your call. Some people beat their kids, some use the distraction method. Most child specialists that distraction is best until age 3 or 4. So leave it alone - she's doing just fine. 2-year-olds have tantrums. A tantrum is TOTALLY acceptable from a toddler, it's what they do, it's how they learn to communicate their frustrations.
Get over yourself, just because you're old enough to be her mother doesn't mean you have to act like one. I'm guessing she's doing the best she can as a single mother. Who knows what her role models of parenting were? Give her a break and pretend you're compassionate about her situation and assume she's doing the best she can. If you can't deal with being around her then help her find people for her to hang out with.

Some studies have found that inconsistant parenting can be worse for kids than overly harsh. Not that we want to go back to walloping kids for misbehavior, but the inconsistancies (and being too lenient) can lead to a confusion and diregard for rules (how many youngsters today think the rules are for everyone else?).

I would talk to your friend. It is very likely, especially as a single mom, that she doesn't realize the effects her parenting is having. She may never be as scheduled or as strict as some moms, but that's okay. The big thing to let her know is that, when she starts to get tighter on disipline things seem rougher at first, but once the little one gets acustomed to the fact that mom means what mom says and mom will follow through, things start to get easier.

Some kids are whinier than othes, or throw tantrums more, and sometimes parents have to find what works to deal with it (not the "distraction" reward method) - my middle child has some emotional delays and I got a lot of flack for him still throwing tantrums at 6 and 7, but I had to work with him based on his needs. It's very likely that your friend does not know how to deal with a high-needs toddler (and aren't all 2 year olds high needs?) Again, share what has worked for you. You might also suggest a parenting class.

She may also need a break! I know that, by the end of the day, I feel exhausted and just want someone to take over for an hour (thankfully, I have a wonderful husband who comes home and takes equal responsibility for parenting). Maybe once in a while you can take the little one so she can go out, or offer your daughter a girls day (you and her) if she'll watch the child so you and your friend can have some adult time.

Everybody parents differently.
I know first hand how hard being a single mom is. I raised two kids myself. But, they are some of the most well behaved kids you could ever hope to meet. I'm not just saying that. Many friends with intact marriages ask me how I managed to do it alone.
Truthfully, there was only one of me and two of them. So, I didn't have time to buy into all the "whatever they want that will make them happy" thing.
Personally, I think it's a trap a lot of the best intentioned parents fall into.
I never want my baby to cry.
I never want my child to be upset.
I never want my child to do without anything.
I never want anyone to say I don't give them enough.

They think catering to every whim equals a "happy" child.
It doesn't.

I have really good friends who are upset right now with their own daughter because the school is making comments about the grandkids not having clean or combed hair. They cry every time someone mentions washing their hair so their mother just doesn't want to deal with upsetting them or making them cry and doesn't wash or comb their hair. Period.
She's married, has a good job, but she doesn't think her kids should have to do anything they don't want to do. Including personal hygiene. If they cry, that means it's uspetting to them and anything upsetting to them could harm them so she won't make them do it.
I don't understand that line of reasoning at all.
But, some parents feel it's best to leave things alone. My friend had to trick the girls into cutting knots out of their hair because it was beyond salvation and her daughter was mad even though it's in their school files that they are not being kept clean.
What can you do?
You're just a friend and if this woman is struggling to find her way with her kid, she's gonna have to figure it out for herself.
I don't think you're being too harsh by not being around it if you don't want to be. That's your choice.
I have a friend whose child is older, but I can't stand the way he treats his mother in front of me and everyone else. She blames it on her divorce, she blames it on having to work. And the worse it gets.
I don't even say anything to her because she told my son she hopes that HE can have a talk with him.
I love her, I love her kid, but I can't fix it or be around it either.
You can try making subtle suggestions, but if your friend sees nothing wrong with what's she's doing, then leave it alone. It's not your place to fix it.
If you're too busy to be around it, then leave it at that.
She'll find her way or she won't.
I wouldn't ditch her completely. Maybe she doesn't know exactly what to do, but maybe suggesting a play group or something would help and if she's like some moms, she won't appreciate your casual observations in which case, you can continue to be too busy.
Routines are good for children but they can be hard to implement under the best of circumstances.
Lord knows everybody has an opinion about everything and she may be torn between being too "harsh" herself when it comes to working things out with her child.

I wish her the best with her kid because I know it's not easy. And it's hard to tell someone that being really firm actually makes things more smoothe.
I think she'll have to figure that out for herself.

You are being harsh and very judgemental. This child is only 2 1/2 for pete's sake. At that age, kids throw tantrums! It's normal. Every child talks at a different rate. My daughter is 24 months and talks up a storm, but she has a 34 month old cousin who only says about 2 words total. The same with sitting at a table. Do you mean the child won't sit quietly and still for an entire meal? I don't know a 2 year old that would.

As far as her discipline method, well that is none of your business. Every parent has the right to choose what method works best for them. No two year old is going to be perfectly behaved, and it sounds like that is what you expect out of your friend's daughter. And I see nothing wrong with her carrying her if she wants. Once again, that is her choice.

If you don't like how this mother is parenting her child, then just end the friendship already. Either back off and accept your friend as she is (which is what I thought true friends do), or go your seperate way.

I remember single motherhood- the highlight of my day was sobbing into a bath towel at 2am, while my ex that ditched us both was out drinking and coking it up with his older wealthy girlfriend. You know, I'm from the old-school of discipline though I'm 30. I bet if you thought back to when your kids were 2.5, I bet you can recall a couple of fits, as well as the occasional "giving in bc i'm too exhausted to fight" I can. And even though my oldest is almost 4, from ages 2.5-3.5, I was starting a college/bail fund because my now fairly well behaved boy was such a nut! People do things different, and mother nature geared us for child rearing before we hit the days that an afternoon nap was a must( i think i'm there already). It sounds like you're being a little tough, yeah, but if it's wearing you down, it really isn't your responsibility.

I haven't read any of the responses, but I knew someone like this...whose daughter, was quite frankly, a nightmare. To no fault of her own, if she wasn't being told no at home, how would she be expected to learn. Honestly the best thing to do is going to have to be to cut ties with her. She will not appreciate any "advice". She doesn't see her daughter's whining as anything but normal and cute, and yet she probably finds all other children irritating, hence why this poor child has no other friends. She is not doing her daughter any favors by raising her this way. The person I knew raising a child like this would reward constant whining with candy. This child would not share and throw tantrums and the mother would say oh she's just not good at sharing. Well, she is 2 1/2 the only way she learns is if you teach her...not by excusing her behavior and not teaching her.
You are not being too harsh and she will eventually annoy you and your 13 year old daughter too much and you won't be able to take it anymore! Good luck.

Well has the mom expressed frustration over this? Is she stressed out and at her wits end? If so, the by all means share with her about how to get her life and parenting more in order. I read this awesome little book by James Dobson called "Tempering Your Child's Tantrums" A total must read in my opinion and a real life saver. Here is a link for it: http://www.amazon.com/Temper-Childs-Tantrums-Pocket-Guide.... It is a little short book for like $5. Anyway just a thought, if she is needing help. But if this is her parenting style and she is not bothered by it I think you either have to deal or just give her space. Everyone is different and if you call attention to it and it is of no consequence to her it could cause problems between you two. If this is a single mom, is the child in daycare? I know that from 2-4 kids can be a real handful and some kids are slower to speak than others. I think it was right around that age that my son started to sit in a chair alone. Basically if she comes to you and asks for help, give it, if not I would leave it alone and just not be around her as much. People are very sensitive when it comes to parenting and unwanted parenting advice can cause a mom's mother bear instincts to rise up instantly. I have been on both sides of this kind of thing, and neither is easy, good luck!!

I have seen so many posts that say that judgmental answers are not welcomed and I think this is a prime example. Yes, this kind of parenting would drive me crazy. My sister-in-law used to let her kids run around with knives in their mouths because it would keep them quiet. I could not even stand being around her. My sister-in-law was just an airhead and never thought about the consequences I never really cared much for her so I did not really deal with her. Obviously, you care for the girl and would like to help. I think that word HELP is probably the key word. She is probably very overwhelmed since she is a single mother. I can remember being a married mother at 25 and it was overwhelming. I think she is taking the easy way out or at least what she thinks is the easy way out. Things will get a lot harder from here on out and if the mother ever wants to get married then she needs to kinda take some initiative over the situation. Some people are not as rough as others. Maybe you guys should just go to the park and let the mother be exposed to how other children her age act. This may be a big eye-opener for the mother. Maybe she will open up to you about what is going on with her. You can offer her some insight from a seasoned mother. I think the mother may be having lots of struggles in her life right now and giving into the child's every whim seems to a temporary solution. Maybe you can just try to have a conversation with her and tell her that being a single mother must be overwhelming and ask if there is anything you can do to help.

The nice thing about being human beings is that you can choose who you hang with and what you choose to do. I have found it very hard to hang out in situations like you have described as well. You are not being too harsh you just need to keep your relationship at a tolerable level. I know how much you like her but you do need to keep in perspective. She is not asking for your advice or input so you shouldn't give it. The one thing we both know is that her daughter will get better as she gets older (probably always difficult, but better none-the-less). Also remember that even though she is 25 (which seems young to you and I) she is an adult and can fend for herself. You do not need to take her on because you are worried about her being a lonely mother. Maybe pass on some names of play groups and such that she can go to but then let it be and see her when you can or want.

Good luck!

First of all I don't buy the idea that toddlers need "pre-school" to be properly socialized (something another mom alluded to). Toddlers learn proper behavior from their parents, and sometimes older sibs - NOT other toddlers.

The best behaved kids I know (including their toddler sibs) are homeschoolers. And we've been around several different schools and many different kids over the years.

IMHO friendship is a two-way street where both parties are supposed to benefit in some way. Of course there will be crisis moments where one friend is totally supporting another. However, when this becomes the "main diet" of the friendship then something needs to change. You may want to be blunt with her - i.e., "I love spending time with you but your little one just wears me out - maybe I'm getting too old!" Or you could just distance yourself - you know the situation best.

Good luck.

Hi K. - the short answer is yes, too harsh.

The long answer is that you need to have your 13 yr old take the little one to the park to play and then you have a sit down chat with your friend.

Dont put it in terms of everything that she is doing wrong but rather that you can see how she struggles at times with her toddler and since you've been through this with your own child, ask her if she would like some support on learning ways to make her life easier with her 2.5 yr old.

She needs a friend and mentor, not a critic.

Find some books to give her that have good parenting advice. I like any of the books by James Dobson. I also like the book; "shepherding a Child's Heart" by tedd tripp.

By the way, "mom of one" is likely a permissive parent as well, at least she lets on that what this mom is doing is acceptable. So do not be hurt by her sharp words. I can relate to feeling overwhelmed by being around this mother/child. I hope that you can find the courage to gently confront /guide her in some mothering ways. That is what we are suppose to do is mentor the younger moms. It is just so darn hard to do- you never know how they are going to react.
One poster below also suggested that you were responsible to find her some new friends to hang out with. That is absurd.

Peace,
Gail

No you are not being to harsh. These days parents aren't as tough as when I grew up. I am a "young" (31) mother, and I can't stand it either! It just amazes me how rude kids are these days. How that there are no boundaries taught. For example there's a kid down the street who comes onto our property and does whatever he pleases, his mom is never there to watch and he is allowed to do whatever he wants. He is maybe 10. If I were to do what he does, my parents would have given me a spanking and I would be going to that person's house and working for them the entire summer for free. However, if I were to talk to these parents then it would be all my fault for getting upset at the child and then damage would be 10x's worse! I don't allow my kids to throw tantrums and they must not be picky with their food, because we can only eat what we can afford, and they have to clean up, do chores, have a specific bedtime, etc. I have 3 kids a 6 y/o and 3 y/o's. Anyway, don't worry about cutting your visits short and allowing time to be between visits.

Nope, not too harsh. Either say something and let the chips fall where they may, or bite your tongue and be busy.

I had a friend who told the mom that she couldn't hang out with her anymore with the kids because they were picking up too many bad habits and it took her 2 days to get them back to normal. She told her that coffee alone was fine, as she loved her company, but no more playdates. This mom got a few more comments about her children and this past year, her kids are respectful and nice to be around. Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees.