What Would You Do....... - Madison,WI

My parents had actually recorded me and how I was acting so that way later on when I was calm I would watch and see what I really looked like. They did that a for a while until I was able to control myself and not lash out when I was mad.

She would lose all electronics and be grounded from everything, including the phone, for at least a week. This is a simple matter or respect.

"In a rage" implies that she had no control over her actions and was overcome with the emotion of rage. She was acting solely on emotion and instinct.

Having a child with ADHD, sensory issues, and ODD, who is now 12 years old and also having a child with Autism, ODD, ADD, Sensory Integration Disorder, learning delays, etc, plus having a typical daughter without any alphabet soup of any kind here is my response:

And 8 year old doesn't necessarily "know better" even if they're typical. They're emotional little beasts to begin with but they're still young children who are still learning to figure out their emotions, let alone cope with them and use the tools in their kit to manage them.

When she's overcome with emotion, she doesn't have the ability to think rationally and say, "Wow, I sure am pissed off right now. I should calm down using one of the tools my counselor taught me. Hmmm, that one isn't working, I guess I'll try another."

When your child is so angry that she's kicking, flailing, punching, spitting, may I ask why you move toward her instead of away from her? She was "in a rage" already, per your description, but instead of backing off to see if she would use her tools on her own, you approached her instead to try to calm her down. She didn't have a chance to use her tools. This is important. Here's why.

When my eldest daughter gets angry... really, really angry... and her behaviors are getting her in trouble, her words are getting her into deeper trouble, and her anger is escalating or in danger of escalating, I have to remind myself to back off. Just being calm isn't enough. I don't yell, I simply let her speak and shout in her rage. I let her vent, but I also direct her towards her room or other safe place. Once she's in her room, I point to her bed. She feels safe in her room. I stand at the door and I listen to her, letting her vent, but if it looks like just seeing me is making it worse, I interrupt her only to say, "I'm going to let you cool off. I want to hear what you have to say, but I would rather do it when we're both calm. We won't hear each other if we're both yelling and not ready to take turns. I'll go downstairs and wait for ten minutes."

So I give her ten minutes. If after that amount of time she hasn't pulled it together, she says so. She'll ask for more time. Then she showers and then we talk. She apologizes and we figure out where to go from there. If anyone is injured during her outburst, they're apologized to and we decide on discipline after everyone's tempers are cooled (we as in me and my husband).

When my autistic daughter kicks, punches, flails, spits... I've learned to back away. Why add sticks and leaves to the fire? Why toss in a log? I would rather let the fire burn out quickly than add to it and escalate it. Once she's calm enough, I get her into a hot bath and then I give her sensory activities in addition. Her discipline is handled a bit differently.

My 7 year old, being only 7, will occasionally flail and kick. It's rare with her. She gets time out and a stern talk, and she doesn't do it for another six months. :-) She does an extra chore or two, but she likes chores. She's a little stinker. I rarely ever have to punish her.

With your daughter, it sounds like there are some underlying issues. Those issues would really matter in the "how" of her discipline but I would never return hitting, kicking, and spitting with more violence. Loss of one privilege that she can NOT earn back, and loss of one privilege that she CAN earn back (for each serious house rule that she intentionally breaks). I would also expect an apology whether she meant it or not.

What did I do???

My daughter was 7 when she spit in my face. We were in the kitchen. I turned around and grabbed the kitchen sink and as calm as I could - I told her to go to her room - NOW - and lock the door. She must have heard something VERY scary in my voice because she stopped her raging and RAN to her room.

I washed my face and went outside our home and BREATHED.....I then went upstairs to her room - this was about 10 minutes later - knocked on her door and asked her to open the door. She did.

We sat in the hall and talked - calmly about her behavior. She too was mad. I asked her if I had ever spit or kicked her because I was mad. No. She said. So I told her that was unacceptable behavior. We talked about using our words....when she is mad - she had every right to yell and express her anger...but she cannot spit or kick or hit.

it was the one and only time that she spit. When she got angry again - she would say "I AM REALLY MAD RIGHT NOW" and then say what she was going to do...or why she was mad....there were times she screamed into a pillow and then used her words...she is now 26 years old.

it's not easy. YOU CAN DO THIS...and so can she. give her outlets to express her anger....even if it means a punching bag...but overall...she needs to validate her feelings.

Good luck!!

She is in counseling. Already. Before this happened.

She has anger management issues. You already knew that.

She has been taught some "tools." Fine. But it seems you are now expecting her do be done and fixed -- able to use those tools when she's in the throes of a rage. You are expecting her to be able to stop and calm her brain enough to say mentally, "Oh! I am angry! I should use the tools my counselor taught me, right now!"

She's eight and that is not going to happen if she is so raging she is already at the spit stage.

As someone else posted: Why were you going toward her instead of (after ensuring she was in a safe location and could not harm herself) getting far out of her way? With a raging toddler, the idea is to leave the kid alone until the tantrum is burned out. Same with her because at that moment she had about as much self-control as a toddler.

Ask yourself: Are you expecting too much, too fast, from a child who apparently has anger issues? Are you figuring that if she's in counseling and "knows better" she then lashed out at you entirely on purpose?

I would suggest you talk to the counselor about your own strategies when she gets angry. Leaving her alone is probably a good one.

Well it really depends on whether the behavior is within their control. The thing is if there is a chemical imbalance, something structural causing the behavior it is more important to identify the triggers than punish the behavior. In that case it is counterproductive to punish because the child will shut down and the trigger will not be identified.

I agree with Jo W. Clearly, there is more to her anger than meets the eye and you must identify it to help her and not get caught up with the punishment aspect of it. There is something serious going on here. Try to be patient and follow through. Look for a pediatric neuropsychologist.

I honestly have no idea. Because my daughter (who is now 11) has never done such a thing. I can't imagine a time that she ever would, either.

I would say that the counselor you are using with your daughter would be the most expert person to ask this question of. Obviously, if she is in counseling, your daughter has issues that we are not informed about here, nor are we aware of what methods the counselor is suggesting your daughter use to handle anger.

Talk to the counselor.

Ditto Jo W.

Has she been professionally assessed?
If so what is her diagnosis?
A School, Counselor for example, may not be enough. If needed and per a diagnosis/assessment, she'd need a Professional Therapist or Psychiatrist because only they can prescribe things, and who specializes... in that sort of dysfunction.
A general School Counselor, is not enough.

When a person is in the "red zone"... rationalizations and logic, does not apply at that time. It will escalate if not handled, by the 2nd person, in a proper way per the child's dysfunction.

She may know "tools" to calm herself down, but she obviously is not ABLE to do it. Knowing something does not mean a person can do it. Therefore, more or other forms of therapy, is needed, ongoing.
It is not a one session thing. It is ongoing.

Is she ODD?

Per any therapy, the parent ALSO has to be taught/informed as to how to facilitate their child per the diagnosis or dysfunction. A child cannot do it, in isolation by themselves.

Your daughter's "anger" is more than what is normal.

I am a parent educator and have been for some time. Without being in your home for home visits, I cannot give you a correct answer.

If she is a typical child, this is TOTALLY unacceptable. Then, this would be a parenting issue.

She is seeing a counselor. Does that mean she has a diagnosis? This would change the answer completely.

This is just an exampIe: I spoke w/ a child a few yrs ago (age 8) who had anger issues. He looked me straight in the eye and said that he gets whatever he wants and does what he wants and his Mom chuckles at him. The media he was exposed to was more violent than I could have ever imagined. This was clearly poor parenting. He played his parent to the max!

This is NOT the case w/ every family.

Another family had a child w/ major anger issues and no diagnosis. The Mom followed the Feingold Food list 100% and the behaviors got better.

I agree w/ the Mom of 4. There needs to be more information.

Why do parents and counselors allow kids to be brats? Out of control, spitting, kicking nut cases? Honestly, why?

Why not just give her a good spanking right on the spot? Put her over your knee, slap her bottom 3 good swats and tell her to knock it off, now. Believe me, you will get her attention and she will snap out of it. Try it. It really does work.

Who is the parent here? And is this a behavior that you want to see continued and done again? Because that is what WILL happen with your pansy approach. Why can't parents be more effective? Why can't parents be more decisive? Be the boss and tell her to friggin' knock it off. Go to your room or outside and act crazy. Believe me, they wont' because there's no one there watching and for her to get a rise out of.

I'm sorry...my post sounds aggressive. But I'm just tired of disrespectful kids and ineffective parents in general.

Find a new counselor ... This one doesn't seem to be working out very well.

Wow it sounds like there is a lot going on here and I have sooo many questions.

*has this happened before
*is there a reason for this behavior; medical, something happened to her, etc
*is this a school counselor or outside professional
*is this rage only towards you?
*does she do this to her friends?

First my suggestion would be to NEVER run into a burning building. If you see she is in a fit of rage, walk away. Let her calm down before you approach her.

Sit down with your daughter and come up with a plan for both of you, such as: when you are like this I will walk away, what would you like to do so you don't hurt me? What is a way you can express your anger? Explain to her that you need to protect yourself from her and it's not ok to do any type of physical harm & yes spitting is physical harm. I would even consider driving her little butt to the police station so they can talk to her about her physical aggression.

Best wishes but again never approach anyone who is in a fit of rage.

Can she think through this? Does she have oppositional defiant disorder? Is she on medication?

Keep working with the therapist - if you don't feel that he or she is helpful, find another one. You do have to give her a consequence - something like not being willing to take her to someone's house until she learns that being mad is not an acceptable excuse for spitting and hitting someone. Until she can show you that she understands that and can control herself, she may not go to friends' houses since they and their moms don't have any interest in being spit on or hit. Or family or places she likes, whatever fits in with what she loves to do. You must make the consequence "fit" with the circumstance of the misconduct.

Good luck - I hope that you can get through this without losing your mind!

Dawn

When a child is in a rage they are thinking with their brain stem and not in their higher functioning. There are things they can do that will help them start refocusing and be able to pull themselves out of it better.

I often pick up my grandson and put him facing out on my left knee. I take his right hand in my left hand across his chest. I use my right hand to gently rub his shoulder and make sure if he tries to head butt me with the back of his head that my right hand is between us so I can protect myself.

I speak in a quiet voice, calmly telling him to breathe, blow it out, breathe slowly, etc....he sometimes takes 20 minutes to be in control of himself and then sometimes it's just a couple of minutes.

It takes practice and time for them to change their behaviors. I suggest you consider she might need some meds for anger if she is doing this more than once in a while.

I would continue with her therapy. Since this issue is already being addressed, seek counsel from her therapist.

In the moment, my response would depend on what her issues are (any sensory issues?) and what she responds to. Grab her and hug her until she calms down. Spray her face (spray bottle) with water to shock her out of it. Walk away from her.

I'd show her my own behavior when I'm mad and see how she likes that. Unless she has some disability or has been through some major trauma, there is no excuse. She needs some discipline ASAP.

Obviously there is something going on with her if she is already seeing a counselor.
But if MY son decided to do that....oh boy....I would pick his bee-hind up, plop him in his room, and close and lock the door for a good long time. And he is not some small fry. (70lbs). Spitting and hitting at ME...the MOTHER...oh man....they would be in a world of hurt with punishments and chores for WEEKS.

Sound like she needs some good old fashioned punishment. I would send her to her room after dinner every single night for 2 weeks straight. No budging. And when she does it again start her on another 2 weeks. I think that sometimes we get so caught up in giving our kids the "tools" to use their "words" and don't realize that kids are really pushing boundaries and LOOKING for us to stop them in the form of punishment. When there is not stopping (only counseling and other psychological mumbo-jumbo) they will keep pushing.