Need Advice from Divorced Moms with Difficult Ex-husbands

Please get a new attorney right now. I can't believe yours just said "Oh, forget trying to order a visitation schedule through the court." Your situation is exactly WHY courts have to be involved.

Your just "telliing" the ex the schedule means nothing to him -- he has no respect for or interest in what you tell him, so he needs the heavy legal hand of the court saying, these are your days and times. Then when he violates those days and times, it's on him. He of course will still try to blame you, because that's clearly how it is, but you will at the very least have a record of all his inconsistencies and lies. Then you will need to go back to court over his violations, which is not easy for you, but isn't it at least better than having to deal with him personally? Let the court and the attorneys handle this, even though your ex will probalby have a fit and make you out to be evil at first.

Get an attorney with a spine. Sounds to me like the one you used was too lazy to want to work on a visitation schedule.

You and he also sound like you need court-ordered mediation becuase he must, must, must stop bad-mouthing you to your child. This is incredibly damaging and you need to see that -- you must get the court to force mediation and the mediation must deal with the blaming and bad-mouthing. He should never, ever tell your child that Mommy refused to do X and it's all her fault. Sometimes a "no badmouthing" clause can be part of a divorce agreement.

You mention that this was your first time in court. I think you are FAR too soft on him, frankly -- the question is not "how do I survive" but "how do I get my child the best and least damaging arrangement here?" What you have now is damaging to her and to you, and he gets to feel he "wins" every time. Get a new attorney and get aggressive in court. If he blows visitation enough times and the court knows it, you might have grounds to seriously reduce his visitation which only sounds like a plus, to me.

First of all, he needs to be reprimanded in no uncertain terms about his bad mouthing you and blaming you. If he won't listen to you on that you need to get someone who he will listen to...sounds like a piece of work!!! More on that later.

My situation with my ex is different than yours, but there may be some peace for you in how I handle it: Mine never HAS been able to be reliable. When we were married, he travelled 90% of the time. He would cancel visits and holidays on short notice, he physically could NOT be relied upon. So I never made it a point of contention for the kids. Because it had always been the case and I knew it could not change. If he got a last minute booking during a time when we thought he'd be here, he had to take it for the $s. I never complained. I made the cheerful announcement and we made alternative plans and had fun without him. Was I bummed out inside? Sure, but why stress out the kids? I understand this is new post-divorce behavior for you and it's your exes choice to an extent, but the fact remains: You can't change it.

Now my ex is even more scarce, but the kids are through the moon to see him whenever they can. And Like always, I just let him see them whenever he can. I don't try to set any kind of schedule. It's best for me to have full custody and the ball in my court. I could deny a visit anytime if it did not work for me (never have) and I also don't try to put unrealistic expectations onto someone who will not comply. And I NEVER cry the blues to the kids either. It's a happy time when they see him, whenever that is. Sometimes I don't even tell them a visit is coming up if there's a chance it will be cancelled. Sometimes we travel and visit him and I don't even tell them he'll be there so they're surprised when we get there. Does he deserve my flexibility and leniency? HECK NO, believe me no. But that is not the kids fault.

So. Can you "accept" that you can't bank on a schedule with him? Can you say, "Look, I realize you cannot maintain a set schedule and I'm OK with it being flexible, but you do need to keep your word up until x time before visit and then all bets are off. If you have not confirmed that you will show up by 24 hr before, then I can assume you're not coming and we'll have to work out next visit, but I won't change plans or wait or blah blah" I have no idea what would work for you, but is there something that would work for you? If so, spell it out to allow for the "lack of routine" in a way you can manage. Make a condition that he does not complain about you to kids. Maybe you guys need a mediator? For us it just works that we both say yes or no to stuff as we're able with no expectations of schedule.

You can't "just tell him a schedule" if he's not going to keep it. But maybe you could "just tell him the schedule" with a clause stating that if he misses a visit, that's it, you arrange the next one for the following week/month/whatever, not milk the one that's botched to death. And also NO BAD MOUTHING EACH OTHER has to be a rule for both of you.

He's actually seeing her a lot compared to lots of exes. Your daughter needs to see YOU being OK with flexibility, not getting upset. My ex schedules trips to see his parents with the kids etc whenever he can, and I consent or not based on our schedule here at any given time. That's the way it is. I'd be upset if I wanted the impossible.

Edited
I suggest that you try having a flexible schedule or have him set a schedule that will work for him. See if he'll still take her. Say he has to give you 24 hour notice if he will or will not be picking her up. Perhaps pattern will develop and you'll have a schedule.

One advantage to this is your daughter will not be hurt when he doesn't show up because she won't be expecting him on set days. And by saying outloud in her presence that he can see her when he arranges it she will be less angry. Put the ball in his court. Often when a person feels less controlled and allowed to make the decision they are more cooperative.

In your post I hear that you are still angry and defensive. You are divorced. Let go of the anger. Know that you now hold all the power. You have custody. You have the power to keep your daughter from him. Recognize that he lost a whole lot of power with the divorce. Try to see his side.
One does catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Not taking her to his house and requiring him to pick her up where you are are very reasonable. But as you've experienced it allows him to say you're the bad guy.

. Find a way to negotiate time with him. I suggest you do this with an effective mediator. The court can give you names of professional ones or you could go to a minister or any one who is good at mediating and who your ex will see as neutral.

Bad mistake on the attorney's part to not force a paper court order for visitation. You should have insisted, in "my" opinion. I am sure you had reason's for the choice you made.

Since you're getting child support through the state that's good. I'd draw up a visitation schedule with him is at all possible then get it notarized by both of you together. Perhaps you can file a copy in your divorce court records somehow too so if he decides it's not what he wants you have a permanent file somewhere.

I think you're in for a hard time all round with this guy. That's why i would want it in writing. Exactly what time he picks up from you and what time he's to deliver her to you. This way he has set times. If he's going to be late it's a simple phone call. I would allow some leeway because he is her father and she needs him. But I wouldn't be a door mat for anyone.

My ex tried to mess with the visitation schedule during one of his longer term relationships. I stayed strong after getting good advice here and am so glad that I did. His gf dumped him and he no longer wanted the change. He's dating someone new now and the request to switch the middle of the week overnight has already started.

Hi - My kids were 5 and 7 at the time. I went through all the same nonsense. He would show up late and my lawyer told me if he is 20 minutes late and does not call visitation is over. She said if you do not do that he will run your life. He was furious but it stopped. It was not fair to the kids having him show up late. When we were at court the official told us 10 minutes late and visitation is over. I write up a schedule that he has to respond to if her does not agree. He also tried to get me to drive to visitation and I refused. He still plays the poor me I have to drive to get you card with the kids. It did get better as the years went on and he settled down a bit. I have been through it all and I also am in CT. Hold fast to a schedule as it better for the kids to know when they will see him for sure. Good luck!

It sounds like you are dealing with someone with narcissistic personality disorder. I have watched two very dear friends go through the same thing for years and it is a very, very tough row to hoe. It has gotten better as their children have gotten older and can finally see through Dad's attempts at manipulation. He will not change his behavior. The only way my friends have found to cope is to get the support of a therapist for both themselves and the kids.
For both my friends, the hardest part has been not criticizing the ex in front of the kids. But it has been worth it - over time the kids have chosen to distance themselves from their dads and are very grateful to their moms for never making them choose sides. A good therapist can help you find ways of dealing with your anger - very justified imho - without making it an issue for your kids. Good luck!

C.,
I am sorry for your daughter. I am her 30+ years later.
My father was abusive to my mother and she "escaped" him. She tried to encourage a relationship between us, but he was bitter and made it known how he felt, so I was always in the middle.
Mom tried never to tell me how she felt about his behavior, he did the opposite. Please don't have her read emails between you two. It's damaging in the end. She needs to know that you both love her. Let the fighting happen away from her.
Mom recalled (when I was an adult) that I would sit at home for hours, bags packed and ready for my visitation, and he never showed. I was such a daddy's girl, that I was afraid to betray him if I gave up waiting. Keep up her life's activities because SHE deserves it, and for no other reason. Her extra curricular activities are for her benefit, and can't be chopped based on his whims. She needs consistency and he's not providing it!
Someone posted you need a new lawyer. I agree. You need someone who will advocate for the child's wellbeing. LOG EVERYTHING. Keep copious notes, save voicemails/emails/etc. Keep a diary of things your daughter is telling you when she gets home, her demeanor, etc this will show his behaviour is having a negative impact on her. I am so sorry for this situation, and I hope that there is a solution before your daughter's self-esteem/self-worth are affected.
Crossing fingers he will open his eyes and look closely at himself!

Your lawyer was right. You can't force your ex to see his daughter. The two of you DO have a visitation schedule and he either follows it or he doesn't see his daughter. (We wasted much money and emotion attempting to get my stepkids' mother to see her own children through mediators and court. In the end we said "You know where they are. Let us know when you want to see them." An entire year went by... )

A friend of mine used this tactic to talk with her kids about this type of thing. She would say "the judge said..." or "the court said..." when explaining why their dad needed to follow the written agreement. This helped to remove the situation from being her decision or her rules.

Don't let her read any emails (she's 7!!) and try your best to talk about this calmly and non-judgmentally. Do not blame her father or talk badly about her father (I KNOW this is hard). No matter what he tells her now, she will eventually understand that you did what you could. The chances of her eventually understanding the situation are much higher if you are the calm and sensible one now.

Added: I find it interesting how many people think having a schedule written on a piece of paper and signed by no matter how many people mean that the non-custodial parent will follow what's written. Having a piece of paper is mostly worthless, if the parent doesn't show up to pick up the kid(s). It's a huge waste of thousands of dollars to continue fighting this in court when there is already an agreed upon schedule.

Send him an email stating "According to the written visitation schedule, you will pick up daughter at this place at this time. Please reply to this with confirmation within 24 hours, or we will make other plans. If you confirm, but have not arrived within one hour of stated pick up time, we will make other plans."

Well, if you leave on the agreed upon days in which he gets your daughter, you are not doing your part. Would it be ok if he decided to stop paying CS because he don't get to see her? You had a child with this man, buck up. If he needs to work on Saturday to help pay your child's support, by all means help if you can. Why would anyone want to make life for the kid more difficult? You guys need to try to work together a little better. I understand bending for an ex you hate sucks, but try and think about it in a different way-it's for your daughter.

I am in the middle of the divorce, and I can sympathize what you are going through. My attorney and I are trying to get my husband to agree to our joint parenting agreement. The language we have in there right now states that if my husband is more than 60 minutes late picking up the kids (without prior notice) that visitation is cancelled, but can be made up later.

You can't force your ex-husband to take his visitation. But it doesn't mean that you should have to sit around waiting for him to "maybe show up if he feels like it". My kids were continually disappointed when my husband said he was going to pick them up but was too drunk to drive over. He kept calling and saying he was on his way, and the kids sat there waiting. We could have been out having fun instead of watching out the window and waiting for the phone to ring.

You definitely have to have a visitation schedule in place. And put some contingency clauses in there to define what happens if your ex is a no-show. This is pretty standard stuff. I am flexible with my husband's visitation, but I won't let him jerk the kids around at his convenience. Good luck to you. It sounds like you need a new attorney.

Hi C.,
Stick to what you're doing, you are 1000% correct. The hard part is your daughter. Ideally no parent should bad mouth the other or put a child in a very uncomfortable situation, but unfortunately stupid people do stupid things. If your ex refuses to drive to get his child then that's on him. You're the one taking care of her and if his time is too valuable to drive out then that has nothing to do with you. Parenting is a joint effort and he can, by law and not morals, choose not to drive to pick her up or see her and nothing you can do. I strongly suggest you keep a journal of all the dates he missed and if you know in advance he's not coming then you make plans and don't talk about him. However, if she asks "where is daddy", I believe you should tell her the truth in a nice way (your dad is busy, he said he can't come, he said, he said, he said) and when she asks why you don't take her to him, simply tell her you can't (car won't make it, you're going someplace and won't be there on time, he said he would come and you have stuff to do) and be semi-honest. Don't be the bad guy and don't let him make you out to be one, simply state the facts and as she gets older she'll make up her own mind, but don't let them gang up on you. Defend yourself as a good parent and this way she'll never hate you because of him. Don't bad mouth him either, though, just simply say daddy canceled and keep on saying "he said". Make him accountable for his actions!!! I believe kids are resilient and while she may get her feelings hurt, you know it won't be because of you...

Good Luck

I couldn't type on her what all we have been through with my ex and my husbands ex. But here it is in a nutshell. It's the RECEIVING parent who picks up the kid for their parenting time. You don't come to my house to get her, then you don't get her. Same for you, if you want her back for your parenting time, you drive to his house to get her. That way you BOTH are driving the same amount. This should be in your parenting plan through the court. You could also try to call the cops on the weekends he's supposed to have her but doesn't pick her up. If there is a court order saying he has her and he isn't taking her, then he's breaking the court order. Same thing on if he refused to give her back. You don't need your lawyer to file the form to modify parenting time. You just pay $12, fill it out and file it. If you both couldn't sit down and figure it out with a mediator, then a judge can figure it out for you. But I must warn you...you are leaving it up to a random third party to make decisions for your family. It may not go in your favor and could backfire. Clearly we have learned this the hard way. If your daughter wants to see him, and you want her to see him and there's a court order saying WHEN she can see him, then he needs to see her. It's really as simple as that. Your parenting plan should say details like, "father has child every other weekend starting Fridays at 6pm until Sunday at 6pm." If it does, then you call the cops at 6:15pm and say your ex is supposed to have your kid and isn't there to get her. Document, document, document. We only correspond with both our ex's through email only. Otherwise it's he said, she said. I could go on and on. Basically, EVERYONE needs a consistent schedule but especially your daughter. She needs to know she is seeing her dad for sure so take steps to fix it. Good luck.

No more talking to him in person or on the phone. Make everything through email. Write NOTHING that you would be embarrassed for your daughter to read. Let HER read his emails. That way she won't believe his lies. If people tell you not to out him, ignore them. It is HIM who is lying. You do NOT have to hide his lies.