My 4 Yr Old Son (Soon to Be 5) Says Things I Don't Think Are Normal.

I like katrin B response. I have a 5 year old who went through this stage at 3 1/2 - 4 years old. As I experienced these behaviors I know they can be scary.
we were consistant with his disipline and we do
not see the behaviors anymore. My son was severly testing his boundries. Good Luck

I think that counseling sounds like a wonderful idea. You can present it to him as something that will give him someone to talk to about how he is feeling about things. You definitley don't want to say that he isn't normal or that something is wrong with him. Just tell him that since he won't talk to you guys about how he's feeling (and he may not really understand how he is feeling) he needs to talk with someone about it. It could be nothing and it could be something and I always say better safe than sorry.
Good Luck

J.,
I am so sorry that you are going through this. I do not have any advice as I think that this is pretty serious (don't think you should make light of the situation) and so I'm going to leave that up to the professionals. I did want to give you some encouragement and let you know that you and your family will be in my prayers. Don't give up on your baby and continue to tell him you love him more than ever and when he says things like that make sure that you hug and kiss him like your life depends on it(because his might) and let him know that you love him and that you would be very sad without him!! I am a firm believer that hugs and kisses work miracles and so does PRAYER!! In the mean time talk to your doctor about who you should be in contact with and show unconditional love throughout the day when he is happy and especially when he is upset!!!

God Bless!
S.

I am sorry for what you are going through...it sounds horrible and very sad. My suggestion is to take him to a psychologist to be evaluated. My concern is that now that he is small is taking his anger out on his brother, but when he gets bigger and stronger he may turn on you. I believe that because he is young you will be able to control his anger outbursts and through therapy he will learn to control himself verbally and physically. I hope you get the help you and your family needs soon!

I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be so stressful. You've gotten a lot of wonderful posts that give you some tips for helping your son, but I want to also recommend that you give yourself some time and permission to be "good". Your last line suggests that you do have doubt about whether you are good enough or doing the right things. Remember that you are a good person and a good mom. You care and you keep trying. I have no idea why your son is acting out and if it's a stage or not. Only time will really tell. Even if you bring him to counseling (which I think is a good idea), the counselor doesn't have a special insight to say, "This is what's wrong, and this is what will fix it." Parenting is such a complicated journey and it's filled with ups and downs. Love yourself as much as you can and give yourself permission to be good... not perfect, not the best, but good, solid, okay, worthy, and special for just being you. I was fortunate that my children didn't exhibit any anger or weirdness when they were little but now that my son is 13 I wonder where my sweetie pie went. We have different kids and different cycles and stages. Trust your gut - and keep the communication open with your son. Our children are almost 4 years apart and what helped us was to make sure that our son's social life (he's the older one) was active and full of friends so that he pretty much forgot about his little sister. We found that he acts way better around other people, too, so we made sure he had plenty of time away from us with positive good behavior modeled and reinforced. We also found that it was best for our family to limit tv and there is no reality tv in our house. Some cartoons and Disney and sports and news. You will be in my prayers. Hang in there.

J.,

You need to get this boy and your whole family some professional help. It may be that he is very perceptive and knows it gets a rise out of you, but he still needs to be evaluated. And you need some assistance with learning how to handle him. It doesn't make you a bad parent, you are just in over your head and need to call in reinforcements.

Any opinions you get from this website will be just that - opinions and guesses. You need someone who has experience, is professionally trained, and can really evaluate the situation in detail. No one can know for sure what is going on from a brief description on a website.

My oldest girl used to say after a playdate "I wish I was in that family" or after preschool "I wish my teacher was my mom." We would drive by a daycare and she would beg me to go to work so she could go there instead of stay home with me. It was a "grass is greener" situation. There were cookies at playdate, her teacher played a game that mom didn't know and there was playground equiptment outside the daycare. Then she figured out that the comments hurt my feelings and she would try to play that card to manipulate me. Eventually she outgrew it and none of my other kids have tried it. (Thankfully my two younger boys play the "your my best friend" and "I love you, Mommy" card to get attention. I like that one a lot better.)

Check with your husband's employment. Many companies subsidize professional counseling costs and you get X number free and pay a reasonable copay after that.

Best of luck,
S.

I would look into a family/child counselor... Your son might respond better to a counselor (bcause he is a netrual person) who could clear answers out of him... where he heard these phrase, why your son says them to you and so on. If nothing else if he goes with you, hubby or both (without little brother laong) he will feel you are looking out for him too and do care about him.

If you want to try to get the answers from him before going to a counselor you could try to bring up the questions during one-on-one play with him. That way he won't feel pressured, you or hubby are just playing with him and ease into the questions. If you don;t feel comfortable with that or it does not work I would be all for going to a family/child counselor.

First, I'm sorry you're dealing with this and the stress it is causing you. It isn't much comfort I'm sure, but surely this is just a phase. If my 5-year-old acts out and says he doesn't like me, I say something like, "I'm sorry you feel that way because I love you very much." My 3-year-old can be quite rough with my baby (8-months- I have 3 boys) and I have to supervise them at all times and not leave the two alone, etc. Think about what you say or how you react when he tells you those things about hurting himself so he dies. Have you tried not making it a big issue? Maybe he's liking your reaction? Do you cuddle him a lot when he says it? Maybe he's looking for that cuddling, but give it to him after he's picked up his toys or just because. When he says those things, try saying calmly, "What should we have for dinner? Spaghetti or chicken nuggets?" And then let him put the noodles into the pot for the spaghetti or the nuggets onto the pan, etc. Or say, "Why don't you go pick out 2 of your fastest cars and I'll race them with you to see which is fastest." Or, "Now I need to start some laundry and I'd love it if you could help put the dirty clothes into the washer." Or get 2 of the same containers and you take one, give him the other and say, "Let's see who can clean up the most toys into this box -winner gets a sucker/apple/fruit snacks." This distraction may work. He's 4 with an incredible imagination, but he's only 4. His attention span is not so long and maybe you could "train" him out of this by distracting him with busy-work, to the point that maybe he forgets that thinking. You're doing a GREAT JOB to even recognize this as being an issue and hoping to nip it in the bud before he sends the message to your 21-mo-old that this is acceptable behavior. It helps my 3-yr-old to realize his baby brother is "real" when I involve him in caring for him. "Do you want to pick out a toy for baby and show him how to play with it?" "Look at your brother smile at you! He sure loves you!" "Hey, dance like that again, it made the baby stop crying because he likes to see you do it!" Then later tell his daddy, "You should have seen 'Billy' with the baby today! He was the only one who could make the baby happy!" Or, "You should have seen 'Billy' help with the baby today! He picked out his outfit and everything!" And make sure his daddy knows to make a big deal of what a great job 'Billy' did.
These are just my thoughts and I wish you the best of luck.

I beleive he knows he's gotten your attention. I'm sure the look on your faces when he talks like this is peaking his interest. He has found a way to get your attention!! That said, this is NOT a normal way for a 4 year old to talk. I taught preschool for awhile & have been in early childhood learning environments off and on for years. I think you should follow your instinct and find a good counselor. Catching things early on can teach him healthy ways to communicate with you. I do suspect a large part of it is the jealousy.. It sounds like you try to spend time with just him sometimes. That is great. It may help him to know why you are doing it. You are special to us. You are the special big brother. You get special time with mommy & daddy because we love you very much. Reaffirming type of things. I bet you already do most of those. Seek out a good counselor. I'm sorry to hear you have to deal with this, my heart goes out to you & I will pray for you all right now.

Doctor. Sounds like depression. Please for him and your family, seek out professional- sending you prayer and love.

I'm sure you're not the only one with this experience. I have seen similar behavior on reality tv shows. I think he is doing it for attention.

Couseling would probably be a good thing.

Don't worry, you don't have the devil's spawn there. You have a young man who doesn't know how to express his feelings in a positive way.

When he says "I hate you", give him a better word "I know you don't hate me, you are angry at me for making you pick up your toys" Soon you will hear "I hate you, but not really, I am angry (or mad)at you" Then will come the "I am angry!" This gives him the right words for how he is feeling.

About the I will hurt myself and die and you will miss me. Have you or someone caught him doing something dangerous like running into the street and say something like "you can't do that, you could get hurt or die and I will Miss you so much?" Parents a lot of time will say things like that and little ones pick up on it and repeat it... then watch your reaction and think "hmmm... this is working". Chances are he isn't sure what he is saying, only that he is getting a reaction out of you. If he says he hates himself or he tries to do things that could hurt himself on purpose then you have a big problem and will need help. To stop this behavior, you have to be careful, if you ignore what he is saying he could assume then you don't care if that happened and you don't want that. You need to reassure him without encouraging. When he says that say "I hope you wouldn't ever do that because you mean so much to me and daddy and brother and grandma and grandpa" then drop it, even if he says "Oh I will" or something like that. Then sometime when he is not in those moods and you have time for one on one with him, cuddle up with him and read a book on death and discuss how when someone dies, you don't see them anymore and that they don't see you either. Talk about challenges in life and how you learn from them and that as he gets older, he will really like having a brother who will play with him and go fishing with him, play baseball with him and all that. Talk about how to treat people (even little brothers) with love and respect and not hurt them. He is almost 5 and a smart little guy, he will know exactly what you say. Once he knows what death is and he doesn't get the shock and upset attention, he probably will find a different way to get a reaction from you... so make sure you react more to positive behavior then bad.

I am really against the rush to "counseling" that seems to be the norm today. I think counseling for a 5 year old would do more damage in the long run than it does good. You're basically telling him that there's something wrong with him and he needs help. Given that he's crying for attention already, he may very well be thinking there's something wrong with him because he's not getting the attention he wants/needs/used to and a counselor will only reinforce that belief.

He's begging for attention. He knows you give his brother attention when he hurts him, and he knows you'll give HIM attention if he gets hurt. So he makes the threat so he can get what he wants. It's a power play combined with a cry for more attention.

The "die" part? All young children come to the conclusion that if they die it will hurt you. It's normal for a child to figure that out but they don't really understand what that means yet. They just say it because they know they will get the response they want out of it.

I remember thinking this way as a very young child, and it was usually when I wasn't getting enough attention from my parents (three siblings, all very close in age). I never said it, but I thought it.

OH how sad! I would definately find a counselor for him and yes, it is amazing at even 4 how much children will open up to them. Stay strong cause that has to be heart breaking but I would definately get him into talk to someone and then be sure to keep an eye on him around his brother as you certainly don't want either of them hurt. Will say a prayer for your family!

I definately think you need to find a family/child counselor. The sooner the better.

The counselor will be better equipped to help you deal with this behavior from your son.

Good luck!

Hi J.,

I just want to say that my first reaction was: "Where is he hearing this stuff?"

Is there a program that he is watching, friend that he hangs with, aunt & uncle that talk like this to each other.

Kids just don't come up with this stuff on their own.
The "I hate you" is kinda normal. I don't remember my kids saying those things, but I do remember my son when he was smaller saying all these terrible things. He didn't get it from us. We later found out that when he was playing with the neighbor boy, they would watch Bemus & Butthead. TV was limited on what they could watch.

I would do some asking around. Sit down with him and color or play trucks or what he likes and start asking simple questions like: Why do you say things like....., and let him know that it hurts your feelings, just ask him lots of questions. It is amazing what you find out hwen they are in their own zone.

Good luck,

J.

I'm sorry to hear that you are going through all this. I agree with what you feel is normal behavior and what is concerning. I think seeking a counselor now would be the best thing you could do for him. Getting the help now over the summer will benefit him the most before school starts in the fall. Unfortunately many kids do this to get their parents attention, even though it is negative attention they are the focus. Be sure to look into where he is being exposed to words/actions like this, there may be other stressors in his life you are unaware of and this is his way of dealing with them. Be consistent with him that those words/behaviors are not acceptable, and of course give him lots of love. Best of luck, hope things improve with some outside assistance.

Hi J. - I just want to say that I would recommend you and your husband getting counseling on how to best handle his behavior, so that you can change your behavior. My nephew had this same behavior, especially towards his older sister, and was very mean to her. My sister sent him to counseling and it has been out of her hands ever since! The counselors don't really tell her what they talk about or what he's angry about. And my poor sister has not learned many coping skills, so I would suggest you and your husband start learning coping skills and how to best respond to his hurtful words.

My hope is it's just a phase. But please please, if you send him to counseling, please do not give him any drugs. The effects of these drugs are not studied for children under 18 so nobody really knows the long term effect.

Good luck!
W.

React to this behavior...it sounds abnormal to me. I'd speak with your pediatrician...he/she may be able to get your child into counseling/anger management for free. Boys are more prone to anger issues than girls, and it's best to nip it in the bud early.
Good luck.

Read: The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner. It is the best all-around book about communicating about anger on the market. You will not regret reading this book.

It sounds like he is really angry and that neither of you are having success communicating that you care about his anger. If this is the case, counseling for you and your husband may be a good idea ~ and perhaps for him as well.

My first question is: Is is OK for him to be angry at your house? Some families have a "no anger" policy - which is unhealthy. Anger is a natural and healthy feeling - but it is JUST A FEELING. This means that HE gets to have it and YOU MUST acknowledge that it's a good thing.

Try letting him know that you can see that he is angry and that you care: "Wow honey, you must be feeling really angry!" A statement like this, acknowledging his feelings, will help the feeling to dissolve.

What is most likely happening right now is the feeling is GROWING because he doesn't have anywhere to put it. Once you acknowledge that he is angry, he has a place to put it - with YOU. You end up taking care of it for him by making it safe for him to give it up.

Anyway, a good counselor will help you and your husband to communicate with him around his anger. Since anger is healthy - you have a very healthy boy on your hands. What is important is to learn to help him manage his feelings so that his words are healthy too.

My boys are exactly the same ages, and if this were happening in my home I'd be worried too. Personally, I don't think that the way your oldest is acting toward your youngest is "normal" when he is almost 5. I'm curious, has he been this way since his brother was born, or is it more recent?

I'm not much help, but I would definitely work on spending more one-on-one time w/him. But I'd also look into having somone talk to/evaluate him.

I cannot imagine how stressful this is for you. Hang in there! ((HUG))

I think Amy is right on.

2 thoughts:
#1 Counseling, Yes. My son has a very kind, gentle, understanding, intelligent one and he looks forward to seeing him. It's kind of his "I'm special. . .I'm worth it" time. He doesn't know exactly why he goes. . just that it helps him sort out his issues w/someone who cares and is not in the family. BTW, he was saying and doing the same things, and I have 3 kids. . not all of them act that way. Don't think it is you or your lack of skills. It sounds like you are very capable and loving.

#2 It is SO worth checking into what he eats and if that has an effect on his behavior. It is proven that ceretain foods can directly effect behavior in a way such as this.
Some thoughts as to what to consider (you may want to keep a log and eliminate one item for a week while recording his behavior):
Dyes-Red, Yellow, Blue ~it is said that this should be the first thing to go in all kids' diets. I'll admit. .. that's a tough one, but I've heard success. . .so it's worth it!
Gluten
Casein
Fructose Corn Syrup

Also check for allergies, in case none of the above are the cause.

Good luck, J.!!! Hang in there. .. if all else fails, and you're into reading, check out "The Spirited Child". It really helped me w/my ADHD 3rd child.

J.

Find a reputable Christian family counselor immediately, and read "What the Bible Says About Child Training" by Fugate in the meantime. The "I hate you" stuff is rebellion and insecurity coming through. The other may be coming from too much exposure to TV or adult themed material. Little kids don't generate that sort of talk out of themselves - their realm of experience is too shallow to think it up alone.

SAHM of seven

I think you are right to be concerned. I would ask your son what he would do if he were to hurt him self. If he is able to explain how he would attempt this then I would seek help immediately. Also, since he is being so aggressive towards your younger child tells me that he is angry about something and it needs to be dealt with now. It is better to get the help when the child is younger then to put it off. You should always listen to what you are feeling, because mom's are usually right.
It sounds like your doing the right thing by reaching out for help.
Good Luck to you and your family

I would find a child councelor...Because they can pull feelings out of him that you may not even know are there..(Could be from school...or daycare..) I would get it checked out before he really starts to get angry toward everyone in the family...and I have and a hard time finding a GOOD councelor...So if the first one don't fit your family find another...It just takes some time and home work..but you WILL find a good one!!!

I have 7 yr old twin boys and the hate thing is normal. He is probably saying it to hurt you because he is mad. I dealt with it by saying it is not ok to say you hate someone that we don't use that word and it is not nice. Ask him how he would feel if someone said it to him and let him answer you even though you know the answer. It will eventually phase out. It is very rare that I hear it anymore accept when one gets mad at the other one they will say they hate their brother but they take it back because they are old enough to understand now. I never had them say they would hurt themselves but they have said I want to die. I tell them that is not ok to say, and how do they think I would feel if they were to die? That I would be very sad and that they would never see me again. This eventually gets better too. I hope this helps and hope it's just a phase. Kids are always better for someone else because they K now what pushes our buttons but with someone else they don"t know what they can get away with. Try not to let them push your buttons I know it's hard and good luck! Hope this helps.

It sounds like you have a very smart four year old who has your number. Each time he doesn't pick up his toys I would begin to take some from him and give or throw them away. When he begins with his rude talk I would take more. He would have no TV time and wouldn't be allowed to do his favorite activities. Your his Mom and he is being very disrespectful. If he is jelious of his sibling, he shouldn't be. That 21 month old is the best gift he has ever recieved. It sounds like he has the upper hand and he didn't get it over night so it will take awhile to get under control.

J. -
I am so sorry you & your son are going through this. I would get him into counceling. And help for you to how to help him get past being so angry.

Best wishes!!!
H.

He says he hates you because he knows it hurts you. If he doesn't get anything out of it then he'll quit doing it.
As far as the other stuff I would really wonder where he's learning things like that. Maybe too much tv or being around other, older kids that are talking like that. Kids just don't come up with that themselves.
I have 4 kids ages 6, almost 5, 4 and 2. When they start acting or talking like the things they hear on tv then I tell them that they won't be watching tv anymore if it doesn't stop. You know him best and what the extent of it is but I think if you start throwing him into therapy he'll learn that acting like this is a good way to get Mom and Dad to go out of their way to make a big deal about him and his "issues".
To be honest, if I heard that out of my 6 or almost 5 year old I would just say "well, if you hurt yourself you'll have to go to the hospital and they'll put needles in you to fix you, do you want that?" Kids hate needles and sometimes they have no forward thought whatsoever. They say things but have no concept of what it actually entails. When you get real with them and explain what would happen they realize that it's maybe not such a good idea. And then I'd say that I don't like that talk in my house and the next time I hear it they will be going to bed an hour early that night.
I really think it's just something he heard and since it's getting a rise out of you he is keeping up with it. I would treat it like a bad word and not allow that talk in my house, especially with younger kids around.
Hope this help, but do what you think is best,
J.
Mom to 4 kids, soon 5 through another adoption and hopefully more :o)

Hi J., yes, I would definetly seek outside help, just when you go to the doctor, explain to him that you don't agree with how he is treating you and his father and his younger brother, that you all need some help with this in how to deal with it. Don't let him think that he is being "punished" for going to see the doctor, cause then it will be even harder for him. Good luck, you all deserve to be "happy" at this time in your family life, not miserable and worried!!

-Gina

I have 2 boys also and our younger son used to act this way. Our situation was due in part to his frustration at being the youngest, so sometimes it is unclear what the initial trigger for the behavior is. Child/Family counseling could definitely benefit all of you to. You and your spouse will gain valuable insight into his motivation and also learn new coping skills to address the behavior. Your son will be encouraged to use his words to get what he needs instead of trying to manipulate the whole family in such a hurtful way. If cost is an issue, try looking at some of the area colleges. Many times you can meet with a masters or doctoral student, who is not yet licensed at a lower cost. This does not mean that you are not getting quality. Doctoral student sessions are monitored by a licensed practitioner and so in a way you are getting two people working together with your family to reach the end goal, peace in your home. (My husband just completed his doctorate in Psych, but unfortunately, we just moved to this area, so I don't have any specific names to offer. I would be happy to help you with your search if you need) You might also think about looking into what services are available either through your home church, or another church in your area. Many churches offer counseling services. Barbara Coloroso has written 3 really great references. One is on giving your child the gift of self discipline (Kids are Worth It) and another is on bullying, which is what your son is doing to you and your other son (TheBully, The Bullied, & the Bystander). A previous poster said that wrapping them in a bear hug would cause the anger to melt away and they would eventually talk about what is bothering them. However, this isn't true of all children. My son didn't want to be swaddled as a baby, didn't want to be cuddled & rocked as a toddler, and when angry, still does not want any one close to him. He has learned however to use his words more effectively to say how he feels rather than be hurtful and manipulative, and to "take space" alone for a few minutes rather than be hurtful to people or himself when he is angry. Boys are wonderful and he will come around. Best wishes!!!

Children can be alarming with how manipulative and intelligent they are. To me, he sounds very smart and good at figuring out how to get his way...

It is normal for children to listen better to others than their own parents. In an odd sense, you should feel good about it because it means he knows you love him unconditionally.

Still, he is clearly testing you and he needs to know you are in charge.

I always say therapy won't hurt and if he is violent with his brother, that is normal but also needs to be stopped.
I don't feel you have a lot to worry about. He sounds like a very bright young man.

My parents created "special days" for individual siblings dedicated to doing whatever that sibling that was feeling left out wanted to do. I expect he is also feeling jealous.

Hi J.,
I think you are right to seek expert advice regarding your son's behaviour. He may be experiencing some anger that he is incapable of knowing how to deal with. Does your area have a child development center? They can assess your son both physically and emotionally and would be a good first step to finding out the cause of his behaviour. They could also aid in providing you with strategies for helping your son to show his emotions. Phone around, look on the internet...I think you are doing the right thing seeking help.
Best wishes, K.

Oh man! You poor thing. I first think it is not so normal to say those things, but it IS normal to try to get a rise out of mom. I wonder where he has heard these things.....daycare, tv or something? I mean, those aren't things a 4 yr old can just come up with, ya know it's pretty intense. So I'd think about that and limit his exposure to where ever he might be hearing that. I think getting some professional help is probably a good idea since it couldn't hurt. But other then that when my child says something along those lines (You don't like me, I feel like you don't love me etc) I usually respond totally calm and say, "well I DO love you and I am sorry that you feel that way but you still need to eat your peas.....". So maybe something like "Of course I don't want you to hurt yourself and I'd miss you terribly if you died, but let's move along and pick up your toys." or "I know you are really mad at me right now and you don't like me very much, but you still need to get ready for bed". You can't let it work in getting a rise out of you. Or at least don't show it on the outside! :) Then of course try to spend some mommy and me time with him each day is probably a good idea. Good luck and hang in there! Sounds like he has some anger he needs to work out. But I would be really firm on hurting the baby. No tolerance there. Maybe offer extra snuggle time for a hit-free day. (?)

Get counseling immediately. He is in danger of hurting your youngest. Sibling squabbles are one thing, but your youngest is being tortured from the sounds of it.

It does not even begin to be normal for a 4 y.o. to be saying those things--esp. the part about hurting himself. He has picked up on those phrases from somewhere.

He is your darling son and this must be incredibly hurtful and stressful. But he is either mentally ill or extremely manipulative, or both. In young children, talk of /preoccupation with death is a symptom of bipolar. Please have him evaluated.

I agree with Dawn S. I don't think this warrants hard core psychological counseling. I think he's experimenting with power and control and somehow heard or saw someone use this type of language effectively and is trying it out for himself.

Keep in mind he is a boy, and boys tend to be aggressive. He's also too young to really understand the gravity of what he's saying. What he does understand is the word choics are alarming, and that's all he really wants right now. To alarm and control...both normal for this age. I'd address it by saying "you don't really mean that, because you'd really be sad if we were suddenly gone. Afterall, we're the only people in the world who will love you this much!" ..and give him a big hug. I really think boys have a hard time expressing themselves and it comes out rough and sideways. They often need help on learning how to express feelings like anger or disappointment. I wonder if when he says these things, its a response to something he wanted and didn't get. Or maybe its attention seeking behavior.

I think hugs (while sometimes that seems counter intuitive when they're being horrible) and words of kindness and love is the answer. They may push back, continue to be rude etc. But if you just bear hug the guy and force him to take it, they will eventually melt and the anger goes away. Then when they release, you can ask them tell you why they had those feelings. Give him opportunities to talk about what he feels or what happened to him during the day.

I think a good parenting class is a good move..and perhaps read some books on child behavior. I'd also do an inventory of friends, tv programs, etc. and see if you can find the "source" of his new found `language library'.