So, I guess in one way this is a vent, and in another way I really want to hear how you ladies would handle this or even what you might think in this situation.
We have some friends who have a son who is a year older. My son is 2.5 and his friend is 3.5. They play REALLY well together with one exception. The friend has a difficult time sharing. And by difficult I mean, he-can't-share. They work this out though, by his friend always getting to play with a particular toy and my son playing with whatever he wants and they just go on about their business but occasionally a play date will get off track when the friend spies something that he wants to play with and he spends an excessive amount of time trying to hide the toy from my son, or trying to hold both toys or he'll become extremely anxious and just sit on the couch with both toys. He will be very passive aggressive in these situations "I don't want to play with you right now.", hostile "leave me alone!", or downright mean "GO AWAY!!". I will tell him in these instances flat out that if he wants to play at our house, he needs to play nicely and share toys. Sometimes this works sometimes it falls on deaf ears and I wait out the play date until his parents pick him up.
When his parents are present this behavior is 100x's worse and if my son or another child literally touches (as in puts a finger on) or takes a toy that he has deemed to be his he has an absolute meltdown. And we are talking of epic proportions usually requiring 20+ minutes to calm down even after the "offending" child offers him the toy back. Which usually happens because they are in such shock from his reaction or the parents of the other child are embarrassed make their child return the toy and make nice. He has vomited, urinated on himself (he's totally potty trained), and shakes severely. (He is also controlling in other ways, but more mildly. He gets irritated if my son doesn't use a fork when eating, for example).
How do his parents react? They soothe him. They speak to him in a soothing tone of voice and tell him "Oh, Matthew, it's ok. You need to calm down now, so-and-so can play with the toy for a little while and then you can have it back--why don't you play with the such-and-such for now." They'll pull him up on their laps or hold him. It's not overboard or anything but it's the same thing you might do to comfort a child who has fallen down but not actually gotten hurt. He'll carry on, and make himself sick or whatever and they'll just say "Oh, Matthew." in this very pathetic, sympathetic tone.
Now, early on when my son exhibited this typical "toddler" behavior I'd place him on time out or a toy on time out if he couldn't share and I made absolutely no bones about it: if he couldn't play nicely he couldn't play at all. I feel confident in any situation that he can play nicely and fairly. Plus, he's had good training from playing with his friend that sharing is important and is always the rule for him even if some other kids don't share.
The reason I'm posing this to you all today is because my husband witnessed one of these epic meltdowns yesterday--he had only heard of them, never seen one before, and he was really annoyed that he had to go fetch a towel and some cleaning product for the mom to clean up the vomit from our floor. He told me that he thinks its completely outrageous that they allow that and that I should tell them that he's throwing a temper tantrum, not just "sad" because he lost a toy.
Personally, although it does SERIOUSLY get under my skin (especially because he is older and has the language sophisticated enough to understand things like sharing and playing fair) I think, it's his quirk and it's their thing they have to figure out as parents. I'm sure they realize it's a problem, if they wanted to do something about it they would have. Hubby says that he cares about the kid and thinks its setting him up for some BIG problems down the line if they don't address it like, now.
I should say the father is a very anxious person as well, although he doesn't exactly exhibit it in ways that would be apparent, he just avoids situations that cause him anxiety and he's disclosed as much to me. So, I think by saying something I'd be making a commentary on his own anxiety as well and since I care about our friendship I'm just going to leave it alone, although I do feel badly for the little boy. A mutual friend told me that she absolutely will not let her son play with him anymore because her son mimics his behavior for days after they get together.
So, I'm curious to hear your thoughts, input, advice...
My friends that were sucky parents ended up not being my friends anymore. I would be WAY to annoyed to hang out with this kid.
This is more than just a run-of-the-mill meltdown. It's sounds like they should be heading to their pediatrician for advice. The vomiting, urinating, and shaking seems very abnormal to me. I think you should gently tell them that he needs to be checked out for this. If they don't hear it now, they'll surely hear about it when he goes to preschool. And yeah, I don't blame your husband for being annoyed about the vomit. I would be too.
wow - this doesn't sound like a spoiled kid. This doesn't sound normal. I've seen coddled kids etc but they don't shake or urinate on themselves or vomit. I'd say something like "wow, that's tough to have deal with him vomiting when he gets upset. Have you asked the doctor about it?" Chances are they either have or will soon...
If I were in your shoes, I'd gently tell my friend that I need to take a little break from getting the boys together because Matthew's meltdowns have become too much for your family to handle. And I wouldn't elaborate beyond that. Invite her to coffee or dinner, just the two of you, so she's knows you're not going to stop being her friend because her son is dealing with behavioral issues. If she seems not too defensive or upset, you can gently suggest she check in with his pediatrician. I really feel bad for him, and for your friend, because the little boy does not sound naughty or mean-spirited. He just can't deal normally. The reality that her son will start to lose playdates or friends may be enough for her to realize it's time to seek some professional help.
I'm with you.
If it's your house, then they play by your rules. You have every right to say "Matthews, Johnny is playing with that right now, your turn will be in a few minutes. Johnny, you'll need to let Matthew play with xyz in 5 minutes, OK?" or "WE share here. It's our rule."
If it's their house, it's their rules. (However convoluted.)
I don't think I would say anything to the parents unless he hits or hurts your child. What do you think saying something will accomplish? Magic change? Probably not.
We don't function in a vacuum, neither do kids.....better to continue to teach your child about sharing and expressing his feelings that to criticize someone elses parenting techniques, don't you think?
If your husband feels that strongly, let HIM say something. He should be prepared for the end of the friendship, most likely, though.
My oldest had a lot of "quirks", too. We didn't think of them as such because we knew them and could do things to avoid the unacceptable behavior. We always took the apple peels off the apples, all ate with the same utensils, always said prayers the same way, etc. When we were around others, they did things differently, and we had to deal with the meltdowns.
Well, even though he is a very smart boy who loves people and is very social, it turned out that my son has autism. That diagnosis helped us a LOT.
While I am not suggesting this little boy has autism, there may be an underlying source of these meltdowns. As the others have said, you may want to mention something about asking their pediatrician... although my ped never said anything, even when we did ask. If possible, there may be county or school district testing for school readiness that could help identify exactly what is going on.
Good luck!
at 3 years old, my daughter who is 5 now. She used to grit her teeth, and growl. The situation was different. It was about her hair. If another kid messed with her hair, it was this kind of strange meltdown. She never physically acted out, but she would zombify and start wiggling, and then grit her teeth and let out low growls. I was almost going to take her to a priest for a exorcism and I am an atheist. Well all jokes aside. We had to work with her, it was where I would have to ask parents with kids her age, to help me de-sensitize her. I would sit with her while other kids came and looked and touched her hair. When she began this behavior I just would re-direct her attention to a toy, or something. We had to do it a couple times to get her to stop. It never like stopped fully, to this day she is a little touchy about her hair, which is very long and pretty. So boys and girls of all ages are always touching it, or pulling it. Even her little brother now. She doesnt growl or shake anymore, but I see her set her jaw and close her eyes. She regains composure and goes on, sometimes she does scream if they dont listen to her if she says stop.
My opinion, is that he is allowed these fits. Maybe the parents see him as frail, or not able to handle a normal interaction so they do nothing about it, UNTIL it presents itself in a public situation. They see what he does, and it makes them anxious so he feeds off their anxiety. It manifest its self in these fits. I agree with most posters, If he is in your home its your rules. If he can not abide by them, then dont invite him again, and be sure you have a good heart to heart with the parents on the reason. Skirting the issue, just leaves them wondering what they did or if it was their kid. They get hurt and burned and then dont reach out. If they are not aware of how abnormal their son is acting, it might take a few outsiders to comment on it, before they understand this is not acceptable. Maybe dad and mom grew up in very sheltered lives, where having a "robot system overload" is perfectly normal 3 year old behavior. I knew my 3 year old was a little quirky and started working on it fairly quickly after noticing it becoming habit.
Sucky parenting isn't a quirk. There may be reasons for it, but there is no good excuse. Gotta love the parents that avoid confrontation to spare themselves anxiety. That's why their lives are so serene.
Here's what's going to happen since they are soothing this behavior: It's going to get way worse. I wish I could wager you a million bucks. I know kids like this. The kid is going to be hideous until at LEAST age 7 if not much longer. You need to find nicer friends for your child to look up to. My husband absolutely can't stand outrageous behavior and soft parenting either. Nothing is more stressful to be around. I would steer clear personally. I have known people like this and you'll get obsessed with every new outrageous thing they do and not understanding why they parent that way. It's not healthy for your child to watch either. Once you quit associating, you'll feel the weight of the world coming off of your shoulders. There are nice kids out there. Go find them. There is nothing you can say or do for these people. Walk away. Or accept it and live with it, but that sounds super crappy for your son.
As for sharing, it's not even about sharing. My kids don't always have to share, but they certainly aren't allowed to act like that either. It takes discipline. It's not about frustration with expression. Even frustrated kids act well with proper discipline. And once they learn to control it (with discipline) they feel better, and the cycle reverses on its own. You know that, but they never will.
Just for clarification, just because a 3.5yo has the language to express himself, that doesn't mean he knows how to do it or that he is emotionally or developmentally able. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him developmentally, just that learning to share is not an overnight thing and literally can take years, as can mastery of one's emotions.
I agree with SweetChaosWith3, that you should gently steer her toward her pediatrician.
i agree with your husband...they better nip in the butt and soon. i hate to think what school will be like for that child....i would dread to be his teacher.
Maybe I'm callous but, since he is going to have the melt down anyway, I would take the toy away and say "Matthew, I will be taking this toy because you chose not to share it. Now no one will be playing with it. Maybe you can play with it later if you can share." It is unfortunate that he gets so distressed but what can you do? Nothing. It is up to his parents to seek some type of intervention, or not, as they see fit. But just because you cannot control the fits that he has doesn't mean you have to give in to them.
They aren't doing their child any favor by letting him get by with this behavior. It will make it harder for him to make friends in preschool and grade school. If this is going on at their house, just take a few toys of your sons with you and when the other boy tries to take them say "No, these are ...... If you don't share your toys, he doesn't have to share his with you" If this happens at your house, take control. Tell your son he doesn't have to give a toy up to the other boy if he had it first. If the boy throws a fit, let him. If his parents try to get the toy for him, tell them "no, you will not make your son always give up toys to their son just because he throws a bigger fit." If nothing else, don't let the boys play together if possible. This boy does this because it works and it will take time to break the habit by out waiting his fits and not giving in. Your son is watching and learning and even though you do something about it, he will start mimicking it and when he gets into trouble for it, then he will not feel he is worthy of this boy and will always give him the lead and that won't be healthy for your son. My niece who is a year older then my granddaughter was like that with not only her own toys but also my granddaughters toys and my parents just watched. They watched her all the time so my mom would bring her to my house to play with my granddaughter who I babysat. I finally got fed up with it and told my niece that she may not take toys from Emma and if she tried she wouldn't be able to play with any of Emma's toys. I also told her that in my house you get time out for taking away. She knew I met it and she started sharing better. Maybe those parents just need someone to show them how to handle the situation because they don't seem to know how to.
The thing is, the only way this child is going to learn is to be in situations where sharing is required.
If your husband has advice for the other parents, HE should give it to them...not be expecting you to do it.
By soothing him, those parents are giving him the message that his behavior is ok and that they support him. Awful. They need to force him to share each and every time. They need to tell him ok, you can play with this toy for 3 minutes and then little Timmy gets it next for 3 minutes. We are going to take turns. Then force him to give it up. He will be upset. Then they need to tell him he needs to go to the other room and when he has calmed down he may come back. And then they need to give him ZERO attention for his temper tantrum. UGH. How frustrating for you. This is a personality type I believe. My son (who is 7 now) also had a very hard time sharing and I would still make him share each time. He had a much harder time than most of his friends. He did get the hang of it - but it took till age 5 before he was actually good at it. How do you tell your friends this? I have no idea. You can model the right behavior by doing this with your son and hope that they follow. You can set rules for your house and tell their son (as they listen) when he arrives...In this house we SHARE toys. We take turns. If you and my son want to play with the same toy you both HAVE TO take turns. I will give each of you 3 minutes with the toy. If you cannot take turns you either need to have a time our or you need to leave.
Just offering a different perspective...I have very high strung kids who KNOW right from wrong, but are also very impulsive. My seven year old is mortified in retrospect about his behavior. Me calling attention to it and putting him in timeout, shaming him, or otherwise making him feel bad loudly only makes him angry, not repentant, not likely to improve his choices next time. Holding him, talking softly to him, and STILL acknowledging that his behavior is inappropriate and ways to deal with it next time have had the best affect on his behavior. Perhaps the mom knows that scolding or timeout only winds him up further, and this leads to even more weird tantrum behavior? The child undoubtedly does need to learn to share, but it certainly seems like there are other issues going on here. My seven year old still has tantrums sometimes--like I said, he's pretty intense, and they're always at home--but never to that extent. Those seem to warrant an evaluation; there's a difference between being stubborn and not liking sharing at 3 1/2 and perhaps being physically bothered by sharing, which it seems is the case here.
