*EDIT* Please do not misunderstand - these people are very nice and we were very welcoming to them when they initially came around. We continue to be friendly to them when they come around in *appropriate* situations. I recognize that freezing them out is not the appropriate way to deal with the situation and I am not proud of it, but I didn't know how to handle it and that was my reaction - hence the reason for coming to you moms for advice. It is the invasion of my backyard, which I consider my private space, that I have issues with. I DO NOT have a problem with them coming and joining the play when there are children gathered in the front yard or even on our swingset, however I do have an expectation that my backyard is not public space when I am out there alone with my family. The ONLY reason I brought up the cultural difference is that I thought it may be relevant and to consider the fact that I may need to handle the situation differently and be sensitive to that fact. I also made the distinction between "friends* and *neighbors* because I would feel the same way if any other family that we were not close to in the neighborhood did this, American, Chinese, Canadian, extraterrestrial, whatever! Let's not kid ourselves that we are all equally friends with our various neighbors and allow each of them the same liberties. And as I said in the original post, even our very close friends draw the line and do not allow their children to play in the more private area of our backyard when we are not outside or without asking permission first when we are.
I don't really know how to describe this situation without sounding like a jerk, but I'll do my best. There is a family (let's call them the Smiths) who lives on our street who has a daughter around the same age as my son (2 1/2). In the spring and summer we are often outside playing on a small swing and slide set that is off to the side in our backyard, but clearly visible from the street, or in front of the house in the driveway. Our next door neighbor also also has young kids and we are very good friends (walk into one another's houses with just a knock kind of friends). My problem is that I feel like the Smiths are stalking us! Last summer they would walk down the sidewalk across the street from our house and stop in front of our house and just stand there like they were waiting for us to come outside. I would see them from our windows and they would stand there for 15 or 20 minutes to see if we were going to come out before moving on if we didn't. And if we did come outside, they would walk across the street immediately. If we went outside to our backyard, the majority of which is not visible to the street, they would come walking along the side of our house into our backyard with their daughter as soon as they heard us back there! Last night was the last straw - our next door neighbors had eaten dinner out on their patio with some guests and their kids finished eating before the adults and were playing in the backyard. Not only did the Smiths come into their backyard while the adults were still sitting at the dinner table, but then they let their daughter walk over into our yard to play in my son's water table and they sat down at OUR PATIO TABLE! And we weren't even outside; we were sitting at our kitchen table in front of the sliding glass doors that look out onto our patio! Talk about feeling like you have no privacy!
We are not friends with the Smiths - we're just neighbors. I have no problem if we are in front of our house and they bring their daughter over to play - I don't like feeling like I can't set foot outside without them showing up 2 minutes later, but I don't think there's anything I can say about it when we're out front. But I really feel violated when I'm in our backyard and they walk around our house and come back there. We do let our neighbor's kids play on our swingset, which is right on the property line between our yards, when we are not outside. And I understand that it's difficult to tell a 2 year old that she can't go into someone's yard to play when you can clearly see the swingset from the street. If we're out there with the neighbor kids and they're all playing, that's one thing. But if we're out there alone, that's another (and since our neighbors spend most of the summer away, this is is often the situation). Even with as close friends as we are with our next door neighbors, they do not allow their kids to come into the more *private* part of our backyard and play on our patio, water table, or sand box when we are not outside, or without asking permission from us first if we are outside.
How do I handle this situation? Is it cultural? (the Smiths are from China) It's already difficult to have conversations with them because of language issues. If it's cultural, how do I explain, without coming off like a total jerk, the American expectation for privacy in your home and yard? I can't go through another summer like last, feeling like I'm stuck in my house or stuck with the Smith's all day. I began to ignore them last summer when they would come around, hoping that would be a hint that I was unhappy with the situation, and it clearly didn't work. And I didn't like acting like that all the time, because it really is not an issue when we're out front (minus the stalking) and I'm not a mean person. I'm at a loss at how to handle it, but tolerating it is not an option for me. We're even talking about putting up a fence!
Have you tried talking to them about it? Have you considered inviting them over? Maybe they want to be friends, but don't know how to approach you. If that is the case, maybe once you feel a little more comfortable with them...you can explain that they should call first or come up and knock if they want to visit. If that is something that you do not want then it sounds like putting up a fence is a good option.
I agree with you totally! I would put a fence up. This happened to me when mine were little. I would look out back and a family would be on the swing set and sitting at my table. I didnt last as long as you. The second time this family of 4 did this to me I went outside and asked can I help you with anything?? This is a private yard not a public playground. I was amazed....this person was upset with me. I put a fence up the next week and did not have to deal with intruders anymore. I did not know these people at all.
Good luck!
Wow, never in a million years would I assume that someone was a "bigoted jerk" for asking if an awkward situation might be a cultural difference!! Pretty harsh, Toni V.
It very well might have some cultural relevance, as historically, the Chinese have had a more communal nature (which helps understand why so many of the Chinese people were so willing to embrace Communism.) We in the US do have more of an expectation of our own personal space, possessions, and boundaries. I have noticed many cultural differences and expectations between myself and my Arab-American in-laws. It does not make you a jerk to wonder about cultural differences. You are honestly seeking out information and advice.
The old saying "Good fences make good neighbors" might help you out here--after all, the Chinese themselves erected the Great Wall to keep out invaders :)
**Yep, I remember the Berlin Wall, but it was not erected by the Germans, but by the Soviets who were occupying East Germany and who were trying to keep Germans from fleeing to the democratic West Germany.**
I suppose I would have responded by going over to them and asking "Hello. Can I help you?". Introduce yourself and get their names. Any answer they give can be followed by "We're having supper right now so you need to leave. Maybe we can get together later?" and exchange phone numbers. It might be a language barrier. They probably would like to get to know you but don't know how to proceed with introductions. I wouldn't assume ill intentions, at least initially. By getting to know them a little better you can also inform them of your rules, and who knows? You might have a new friend in the neighborhood.
What's wrong with telling the Smiths, "I know this may be hard to understand, but please do not come into our yard uninvited. Our yard is private not public." Or you could ask them to leave. "I'm sorry, but we don't want anyone over right now."
If my neighbors came over and were on my back deck uninvited, you can be sure I wouldn't be nice about asking them to leave! Foreign or not!
Or, get that fence up and lock the gate! Good luck.
I do think it could be cultural, and don't think you were trying to be a bigot at all. There isn't anything wrong with mentioning the possibility of a cultural difference when you are asking a question about something like this. This is odd, I agree. Other cultures have major differences in the perception of personal space and what is appropriate in this kind of situation. Or maybe they are just socially inept. We all know people who just don't have a clue how to behave in social situations, no matter what race/culture they are.
I'm with you, I would find it very weird to have my neighbors come up and sit on my porch without being invited. I mean, they first went into your neighbor's yard while they were eating with guests. That is like walking into someone's dining room. That is not normal. And I live in the South! Where we do stuff like that. :)
I think the easiest thing to do without having to be very blunt to your neighbors is to put up a fence. Then you have the option to invite them in when you see them out front sometimes. You don't want to have to entertain all the time, and there is nothing wrong with wanting your privacy. I would not want to have to "visit" all the time, there is nothing wrong with that, and for me anyways it has nothing to do with race, just whether I am feeling social today. Maybe if you are a master communicator and a person with great peace-keeping skills you could pull off telling them you don't want them to come over without sounding mean, but I don't think I could do that. So I would get a fence if it were me. Good luck!
Added*
I'm not saying to not be be friends with them. It does sound like they just want some friends, and that is ok. I just agree with you that it doesn't have to be all the time and that your yard isn't a communal area. I would love to have a friendlier neighborhood than the one I do. And I noticed that no where in your post were you saying you didn't want them around or didn't want to get to know them, just that you would also like to be able to play alone sometimes. In fact, it sounds like you are friendly with them and do have them over to play. There is nothing wrong with wanting that to be on your terms though. That's why I voted for the fence- you get to have some privacy without having to hurt their feelings.
I can understand why their behvior is creeping you out a little. I disagree with the posters that said it's not a cultural difference. I really believe that it is. When I was a kid, my parents always hosted exchange students through the summers. They were from Japan, Mexico, France, China and Germany. I remember the Chinese girl very well. Everything about their culture is so different than ours, the rules of privacy and hygiene even.
If they're immigrants that came to America for a better life, it sure would be a shame to make them feel unwelcome and stigmatized. Maybe you could invite them to come over more often, or invite them in more often. It sounds like the mom really just needs an American mom to take her under a wing and help her assimilate into American society. She sounds lonely. You should be able to let her know about American boundaries and expectations in a way that won't embarass her. Make sure you let her know that you understand how different certain cultures can be and that you know it's difficult to fit in and that you'd like to help her and don't blame her for not knowing how to go about it before. I'd think this would solve your problem although it's going to take some forebearance, patience and work on your part. I'm willing to bet that a few months will see a vast improvement in both language skills and respect for boundaries.
You never know, they may turn out to be some of the best friends you've ever made.
I don't think it's a cultural thing, but I do think the language barrier could be making it difficult for them to make friends and, more importantly, help their daughter to make friends. We have neighbors from China who we did not speak to for a few years because it was just awkward. We found out when our daughters started kindergarten that they were the same age. One day she invited my daughter over to play and I could tell that it was difficult for her to approach me but it all worked out well and now she and I talk whenever we see each other. The next time they are out in front just go talk to them. It doesn't have to be confrontational but you can say I've noticed you are out here a lot and you come into our yard occasionally, can we help you with something? Watch your tone so it doesn't come across as nasty, but actually helpful. Maybe she doesn't know how to contact you to ask if your child can play with hers. I think if handled right you could help them tremendously in assimilating into the neighborhood and you might also make a friend for your child as well as theirs.
Good luck,
K.
Have you tried to befriend the "Smith" family? Could it be that they are looking for friends as well as neighbors? I am not sure what to do except talk to them about your "rules" regarding the yard, you can even phrase it like it is a liability/safety issue for when you are not there. As for the "stalking" it sounds like they are looking for friends.
;
A fence isn't a bad idea. It doesn't have to be a big deal though.
I am thinking simple chicken wire between the two houses.
You can barely see it from the street, cheap, easy, and you can take it down when the heat is off.
It does sound like she would like to find friendship. Even if you are just the kind of friend who is friendly and offers ideas of cool family events around town that her daughter might like...You don't have to take her in, but you might try to think of someone who is that kind of person and introduce them...
Me ~ I'd have her over and enjoy all she has to teach me about her culture and differences. Recipes, relationships, government, etc. but I understand that not everyone is this curious and really we mom's don't have a lot of time, so do what works for you and makes you happy, while having empathy for her and her experience.
At the very least let her know that you don't mind her practicing her English when you do see each other. Then let her do the talking. Listen and ask her questions. Correct her, simply with a smile. When you need to go, just let her know how well she is speaking, you've got to go now and you look forward to seeing her again. She will likely be grateful for the kindness, even if it only 5 minutes, rather than mad you had to attend to your own business...
Good Luck
Zai Jian (good bye) :-)
It is true the Chinese themselves erected the Great Wall to keep out invaders, so did the Germans...remember that one?
K.,
“Is it cultural? (The Smiths are from China)”
I say put up a fence and/or find yourself a translator to talk with “The Smiths from China” to let them know their neighbor with the swing set is not interested in becoming friends.
I have to be honest and say (in your own words) you have not only, “come off like a jerk”, you have also come off like a bigoted jerk. What kind of message are you giving to your child and your neighbors children? "Smiths Not Welcome."
Blessings…..
I do think it's cultural. I am from Russia and my mom came to vist last summer. One time when she took my youngest to the playground (he was 2), he ran to the woods to see some birds.....well woods was the back of somebody's yard and they were sitting on their patio. I could not believe she did that, but she said what's the big deal, there is no fence. So yes put us a fence, but I would invite them over sometimes, they probably just need friends.
As I read this I had to make sure you weren't writing about me and my child - my child being the stalker. My son, who is 2, is infatuated with a little girl who is 3 and lives across the street. My son constantly asks about the little girl and always wants to go to her house. He insists that we take walks past her house and wants to go up and knock on the door. We've been invited over a couple times - our neighbor has three kids - but I try to limit our visits to when the family is playing outside. Problem is - it is HARD to explain to my son that we can't spend every waking moment at our neighbor's house and to find other activities for him. We don't even see them playing outside and he wants to go over there.
The "Smiths" are probably confronted with the same issue with their 2 year old and they are more challenged by the fact that their daughter can see and hear you and your kids outside playing.
I don't necessarily have any advice on how to change the situation - other than to explain to the Smiths that you enjoy it when they come and visit when you are playing out front but that you like to have family time when we the kids are playing in the back. I just wanted to try to offer an explanation of why they are constantly coming by. I don't think it's cultual and they aren't stalking you, the two year old is requesting it. As for the stopping, my son always wants to stop at the neighbors house and I have to spend 5-10 minutes trying to deter him from going up to the house and/or explaining that the little girl is not home - they are likely doing the same.
The challenges of dealing with young kids isn't limited to one culture or another. I'm sure their daughter enjoys the play time and the Smiths are just happy to find something that entertains her.
Make the most of it!
that is a tough one. it's not a cultural thing. if you're not friends, you're not friends, and your swingset and your backyard is just that. maybe they came once or twice before and didn't feel unwanted to now they do it all the time.
i say honesty is best policy. don't wait for them to show up, because it will cause an uncomfortable situation if you wait until they show up and you say it to them.
so next time yous ee them on the street, doing the same they've been doing before, either just standing there waiting for you guys, or even outside in their front yard. go walk to them, and start a conversation.
just say something like, hi i need to talk to you something.
say i like when our kids get together and play but i think we should arrange playdates from time to time instead of getting together every time we're outisde. say something you don't want your son to grow up thinking anybody can just walk into the yard, because a stranger may do it and he will think it's ok because you, meaning, neighbors, do it all the time. also say something like when you're outside you want to be with your son but if there is always company you're not getting you're one on one play.
language barrier? well the people already live in this country, so they must speak some english. keep it simple, to the point, kind of firm, and be done with it. you will not be considered rude but about time you stood up for your privacy.
i am foreign born and there is no way i would walk to anybody's house let alone neighbors. yes, speak up.
good luck and let us know how it goes
L.
I can be the queen of rude, let me take a shot at this. How about the next time they pop into your yard, you just look at them with a huge look of surprise and say "I'm sorry, can I help you?" This may clue them in that this is weird behavior on their part. Then if they say, uh, no we are just here to play on your stuff, then you can say, Oh, well we are just having dinner, but you can come back some other time - I will let you know when is a good time to come over here.
There probably is a cultural difference and they probably do want to be friends, probably desperately, but it's wrong that they are invading your space, but also possible that they don't realize it for whatever reason.
I would always just immediately ask them, "Hi! What can I do for you?" and if they say nothing, then say "Oh, well I was just doing.... (fill in the blank).... so if you want to come back some other time, I will let you know when is a good time to come over." This puts the power back in your hands. And it re-emphasizes the point that they need to be invited to come to your house.
I guess it may be rude, I don't know, but that would make me a little crazy, to say nothing of the liability it creates.
Put up a fence! yes, it is costly, but it makes your yard safer for your young children to play in (which is a great excuse), gives you more privacy and you can put a lock on the gate and keep out friendly (or unfriendly) visitors any time you wish.
Ugh. I feel bad for you first think things thru before saying something you will later regret. I would try to distance myself and see if they get it. I would put up a small fence around at least part of your backyard to make it more diffucult for them to get in the back.
Maybe were they come from this is socially acceptable. Maybe were they originaly come from its not considered stalking. That being said I like my privacy. Our last house before we had children. We shared a driveway and my neighbor would everyday walk over even when I thought I was completelty obvious ( without actually telling him to leave)I worked a long day and just wanted quiet.
They might just want to be your friends. Maybe they see you as kind nice people. Its harder to meet friends as adults then when are children.
Maybe it would help to learn a little about where they are from and what neighborhoods and neighbor interactions are like from their home country. It maybe that they stand on the sidewalk waiting, because they are to shy or uncomfortable coming and knocking on your door. Maybe they don't know your daughter's name so they can't come ask if she can play.
If is a bit odd that they came into your backyard and sat on your patio with you inside. As for the kids playing while the adults were eating, the kids here do that, but the adults wait to be invited over.
You shouldn't feel that you are captive in a fish bowl. Since the swingset is open they may not understand that its private property. Perhaps you and the neighbor could plant a hedge across the side yards to create a defined line between public and private areas.
Good luck
M.
I kind of agree with the bigoted remark.... I thought that was why you hadn't tried to friend them, you wrote you are not friends with the Smiths, just neighbors...I think they sound sad and lonely and want to fit in and be friends with you and your neighbors but don't know our social norms. They are standing outside looking at you looking at them out the window and hoping you'll come out and invite them to come over. What they see is other kids coming over and playing on your play equipment and then they don't understand they are not welcome.
I would invite them over and get to know them. Then when you have friends over they'll already be there. I agree with the fence idea. That way you can't be seen from the street and you can have privacy when you want it. Be sure you put a lock on the gate, that way they can't come on through it anyway.
Knowing, or learning, a language and fitting in are totally different things. Understanding social norms is a very hard thing to learn. Every neighborhood is different and if someone moves they have to learn a whole lot of new rules and social mores' (all customs of proper behaviour in a given society, Wikeipedia definition). It is extremely hard for people raised in our country to figure it out and even harder for people raised in a different country and culture.
