Follow up to Curious About VBS Prices

Wait. I didn't answer your earlier question but your questionsl basically asked if its your business. That's why you got some "none of your business" replies. Your question now doesn't make sense.

ETA: There's one more piece in this to consider, which is simply this: you might be making some assumptions while overlooking the motivations of others. If the director of the VBS program chooses to volunteer or take a lower wage, that is her choice. She may feel that this is a ministry which she is called to. Not all compensation is monetary; people who volunteer tend to have placed value on the experience and find something substantial and satisfying in it which can be separate from the situation itself. I mean "I'm not sure about supporting your program because you only use volunteers" could be a bit silly-- I've found that many of the volunteers who helped with the kids were far better than the paid staffing I was given. In short, some people are there to do a job; for others, this is part of being a church community and an outreach mission as well. Be wary of letting the personal motivations of other-- and how they are outwardly perceived--dictate your own actions.
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I think you'll have to look into your own motivations for why you want to volunteer and keep that, perhaps, in mind when you choose *where* you might want to put your efforts.

It seems that you have made a lot of assumptions about how the program is being run. I'll say this: I've directed child care for High Holy Days at a synagogue. If one of the parents had come up to me and started asking me about how much/ if I'd been compensated for the work, I'd have politely directed them to the admin person I'd been working with, who would probably have directed that person to the financial board. Why?

Because it truly is none of your business what I make for this particular job.
Because it also has to do with *my* personal income, and that's private, right?

If you want to see more of what's behind the scenes, then volunteer in that capacity. If you want to know how the church is spending their money, ask to be on the board.

Do you not think that if these expenses and budgets were opened up to the public, those in charge wouldn't hear every little gripe/complaint/suggestion from those they are serving about *how* they should run the program and where costs should be cut, so it doesn't affect them?

Maybe they are charging more because of expenses. Maybe they feel a certain level of fee will keep the neighborhood from using them as free child care. Maybe they charge because they know some families might not show up after all, but they will still be charged for the per student/curriculum because of predicted numbers.

I'll also add that accurate predicted numbers determine how we coordinate care for each age group, to ensure we have enough caregivers for the variety of ages we will offer care for.

I know this is the long, thought out answer, but I want you to realize this: your demand to know how they spend their money, PLUS this rather snippy question, is likely not going to serve you well in your relationships. You asked a previous question and then come across as demanding, unhappy with our answers. You will have to search your own feelings and motivations as to if 'helping out' is right for you. I spend quite a bit of time at my son's school and will next year assume a responsibility that a vocal few parents have some criticism toward, yet none of them were willing to take on this obligation themselves. The point of it is that even with its small flaws, I feel this is a good program and I think it's a worthwhile use of my time in facilitating this for the teachers and students. You have to decide, yourself, in your own heart, what you will choose to support or not-- and you may have to do it without all of the information you feel entitled do (but which you are not). We all have to do this from time to time. Do what you feel is right for you, but please don't start thinking that it's 'ironic' (which it isn't) that so many of us have a none-of-my-business mindset about things. We are living in the real world with reasonable expectations, don't knock us for that.

Well… since your question asked whether paying people have a right to know, how is "it's none of your business" an inappropriate response?

Personally, I don't think it's completely none of the business of a church member - our budget is open for review of members. As simply a patron of a church event, however, without being a church member, I don't think it's your business. That being said - I would NEVER attend a VBS with 500 kids, nor would I pay $125 for it. If you don't care for the conditions or cost, go somewhere else. Free market.

Ours is free to anyone, although we do accept donations, and we provide a meal every evening for a small fee if people would like to add it in. It's not a money maker for us - it's a community builder.

ETA: Rereading your description - we provide real food snacks, too - not simply a dixie cup of froot loops, but actual fruit, cheese, and other healthy alternatives.

non-profits, especially churches, are tricky because it doesn't mean they don't generate profits, just that the profits don't get distributed to shareholders. (i think. i'm sure i'm over-simplifying.) so that profit can go any number of places, and in 'non-profit businesses' (a title so shaky it's laughable) it ends up in a very very few well-lined pockets.
i think it's okay to ask. but if it's not your church, you'll almost certainly be perceived as weird and nosy and annoying. that's not the end of the world.
but your question WAS basically 'is this something it's okay for me to know about?' IOW 'is it any of my business?'
so why are answers that say 'no, not your business' out of line?
khairete
S.

I am Catholic so I get the whole where is the money going which is why I was always willing to open the books, explain what we are doing. At least in our parish the women who volunteered just wanted to know they had some control over where it goes.

Our group most of the money went to the school. I wonder if that has changed a bit now that more kids are doing PSR than full time school. Anyway, I am sure you will find this hard to believe but a good number of Catholic pastors have an ego the size of Texas and although they don't buy for themselves they like to funnel money into projects that will bear their name. When the pastor decried that we must give X to the general fund it actually hurt my ability to get people to help out and the grumbling was quite bad.

So I get it. Which is why I said ask the people that run it. Most will be happy to tell you where it goes.

Your original question was "do people have a right to know where the money is going?"

So, you consider the answer "No, I don't think people have a right to know." an inappropriate response?

I wasn't trying to be rude, but if you ask a yes or no question, I think that answering no is reasonable, and certainly not a reason for you to be offended.

If you'd like me to clarify my response further, I will. I would say that if you are a member of the church, then you probably have a right to know depending on how your church is run. But if you are simply a person purchasing a service, then no, I don't think you have a right to know. Is it ok to be curious? Sure. But you asked if you had a _right_ to know - which to means that you are entitled to know and that they should be required to tell you. To this I say no, if you are not a member of that church, you don't have a right to know how that church spends its money.

Or, perhaps you are thinking of the fee as if it is a donation to the church. When I donate to an organization, I do look at stats on how they spend their money. But my perception of VBS is that people who pay to send their kids are paying a fee for a service (childcare with Christian education built in). It's quite different from a donation. And if you pay for a service, you decide it's worth paying for, or not (just like your hair stylist or any other service industry). But you don't have a right to know where the money goes in the same what that you do when you make a donation.

I wouldn't belong to a church that has the pastor controlling the finances. The pastor should be an employee of the church, and church finances should be controlled by the congregation, through a council or board. I wouldn't belong to a church that doesn't make it's detailed accounting known to every member of the congregation.

I think people missed the math, that if there really are 500 kids attending and each is paying $125 a head -- that's a massive amount of money the church is taking in for one week of half-day VBS. It's more than some people's annual salary. So if the numbers are correct (and I find 500 at VBS jaw-droppingly huge, so I get that there is some skepticism on that number) -- but if the numbers are correct, I would also want to know where the money is going. This is way more than just money for a stipend for a VBS director and a purchased VBS curriculum package. Like I said in my earlier reply, if this is a fundraiser for the church, that's fine by me, but the church should say up front that it's being used as a fundraiser.

I don't know what denomination this is, but ours is all about transparency and I can see every penny that comes in and every penny that goes out, at any time. I wouldn't want to go to any church that did not allow that because it would reflect a real arrogance about the stewardship of the congregation's giving and fundraising.

I don't get a "mind your own business" attitude when it comes to MY money or the money of an organization to which I give my money. My money IS my business and if I give it, even if I'm "paying" it for a program like a VBS, I should feel free to ask where it goes. And I wouldn't support any organization, including a church, where I didn't feel free to ask and the organizers were reluctant to answer. The amount of money and the number of kids involved in your example, if it's accurate, is really big for something as basic as a VBS, which set off your alarms, and it would have set mine off too. I am not saying they're cheating anyone, just that they should realize they are going to be asked about this since both the number of kids and the amount of money are far outside the norm.

What I got from your question was that you thought they charged too much and didn't spend enough on the kids. If you felt that way, I don't know why you would send your kids to VBS there.

And honestly IMO, I thought it was weird to focus on goldfish crackers and water as a snack. It would be different if you said something like "the teacher/student ratio is really high" or "the curriculum is mostly worksheets without prep and not a lot of hands-on activities". But generic fruit loops and usage of volunteers seemed to be the big issues.

And out of curiosity, how can you tell the fruit loops are generic? lol

I have never even in my whole life of going to a variety of denominations heard of anyone charging for VBS. That's absurd in my mind. You have it to bring kids to Christ and to foster them making church friends so they'll feel welcome and want to come back, so their families will eventually come too and join in.

Here in Austin, each time I attended as a child it was free and whenever our daughter attended it was free.

I always offered a donation if our daughter attended, but they said no, it was fine, this was a community outreach...