Do We Really Know What We Think We Know?

"He Who Thinks He Knows, Doesn’t Know. He Who Knows That He Doesn’t Know, Knows"

- Joseph Campbell.

Brilliant man.

People DON'T seek out knowledge because knowing isn't comfortable.

They prefer to see things in the way that supports their own agenda because they fear that if someone else was in charge what would happen to them?????

We actually weren't founded on religion, at all. We were founded on religious FREEDOM. The freedom to practice anything, or nothing.

I feel terrible for Muslims. There is literally, over a billion of them. The few that are extreme, taint the image of all others. I have never met any Muslim that wasn't tolerant, loving, kind, and open. On the other hand, I often meat "Christians" who are complete bigots, and spew more hate then most others I meet. I am a Christian, and more often then not...I feel embarrassed by those Christians around me. Seems, they forget the greatest commandment of all.

I know MY truth, and I believe it to be THE truth. I don't know your truth, and I don't think it's any better or worse then mine.

Hi P.-

I have to agree with you.

I have many friends...of many different cultural and religious 'persuasions'...

I was in northern va during 911. I was SHOCKED at the immediate negative response toward muslims in my neighborhood following that event.

Anyway, all I can say is that the OLDER I get...the MORE similar I find ALL people are with respect to basic tenets of humanity.

PERIOD.

I am going to leave it at that...we 'all' strive (in the absence of a mental illness perhaps) to do the best we can.

I BELIEVE this.

I have hope for humanity.

I have H O P E !

That is MY FAITH....

(and I am sticking to it!!)

Best
michele/cat

P.,

Your post made complete sense to me. I'm a secular humanist, but the kind that doesn't have a problem with any faith in particular, although I do have a problem with how some people go about practicing their faith... and in that vein, I am referring pretty much to extremists who use faith as an excuse for destruction and death.

I also believe that faith is very personal and a choice; I should not be held up to the standards and practices of anyone else's faith but my own. We have a government which establishes the niceties of law and order; outside of those established rules, I must hold myself to my own beliefs and ethics and sleep with myself at night. Another individual's personal or spiritual beliefs should not be imposed upon me; instead, I must choose to comport myself in accordance with what I deem wise and appropriate. Others must do this too. It's not always comfortable, but it's what living in a democracy is about. We are fortunate in this country to have the option of believing what we choose, even the flat earthers. And they feel their beliefs and theories are substantiated as well.

I know that there are some very vocal atheists who frown upon anyone worshiping any sort of deity. I disagree with that. Those I know who are members of one faith or another get a lot out of that faith, their personal relationship with God, and being in communion with their congregation and serving their community. Their happiness is of great value to me, so even if we don't see eye to eye on some things, I do really appreciate their devotion to their beliefs.

My dearest best girlfriend is a Republican-leaning Libertarian Christian. I adore this woman! We focus mostly on our common interests in conversation, have very respectful disagreements with curiosity on both sides as to what the other thinks and why, and we do agree on one thing in particular: the idea of civilized discourse in the age of the soundbite, 24 hour news cycles and too much social media is becoming an endangered species all its own.

(For what it's worth, part of the problem of our debate system in general is that it's mostly conjecture and bombast, hardly any content. During the senatorial debates of 1858 between Lincoln and Stephen Douglas, each debate was slated to be 3 hours in length, there were seven debates and each one was published --full transcript--in the newspapers. A far cry from what we are treated to today. )

Hi P.,

I know you are referring to my comment so I thought I should elaborate on what I was saying since you clearly didn't get the gist of my comments.
I was simply saying that I'm glad that the U.S. was founded on biblical principles, several hundred years ago. Unfortunately, other cultures don't get to enjoy the same rights and freedoms we do here in America.
The following was copied off of wikipedia. Even our beloved president is working to push civil rights in some of the middle eastern countries. That is all I was getting at...we have the luxury of many rights here in America that was founded on biblical principles. That's all!

"Political rights in the Middle East are often reported to be a cause of concern among many outsider observers, governmental and non-governmental.[who?] However, the state of this subset of human rights varies from nation to nation. For example, Jordan[citation needed] has a relatively progressive human rights record. Other nations like Syria[citation needed] and Saudi Arabia have been known for their very repressive regimes that have no consideration[weasel words] to human rights. There are some issues prevalent in most Middle Eastern countries, often due to their common Islamic background.[original research?] For example, the following topics are mentioned in the Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen articles:
Freedom of speech
Freedom of religion
Status of religious and ethnic minorities
Status of women
Status of homosexuals"

I said nothing or assumed anything bad about Islam or those following it. I was speaking about the laws in place in those countries. Just so we are clear.
ETA: I just went back and re-read what I wrote in the other post. I think my error was in saying "Middle Eastern Culture", and what I should have said was countries.

Are you asking if I "assume" that ALL Muslims are bad?

If so - the answer is no. Like with any religion or culture - there are extremes to everything...so what are you looking for?

No two people will think alike. Not even twins. That's the beauty of this world. Everyone is different.

As to our country being founded on Biblical beliefs. Yes, that is true. Like you stated - founded on religious FREEDOM - so not just ONE religion is practiced, or someone could choose NOT to practice a religion.

Why do people fear Muslims? Because of the "extremists" who take the following verses:

"On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161"
"Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191"
quiet literally....hence the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

When we are bombarded with images of Muslims closing city streets to pray...then followed up with the wars waged...it's hard to separate those images and see that NOT ALL MUSLIMS are bad...Just like NOT ALL liberals are bad...not all Libertarians are bad...

Each country, has its own education and media system.
What we Americans see here on the news and what we are taught in schools, for example... is NOT the same... worldwide. Even if the same news event is being talked about.
Bear that in mind.
Each country, has its own propaganda. Even our country.
Per the news and what we the public sees or hears via, the tv media or newsprint media.
As such, NO one, will get a totally neutral, exposure to what is, going on. And each country/culture, has MANY facets, to one, belief. Many, factions. It is NOT homogeneous.
It is not, at all.
And because of this, stereotypes, arise. About not only the religious landscape of a people or culture or country.
It is, not the full scope, of what is.
But, in every culture or country, there are bigots. And they may seem... to be the "majority" but are not. They have the bigger mouth. So to speak. So it seems.... to be the majority.
And each niche group or faction, is made up of individuals... which then comprise the group they belong to. And then you get mob mentality. From extreme groups.

Even here in Hawaii, so many people have stereotypes, about the Hawaiian people. Which are not true. But what the mainstream society conveys, even if erroneously about them, takes up and becomes.... the "normal" way of viewing them. But it is not correct. This is but one microcosm, of what goes on worldwide.

In our home, we have news channels, on our tv, from around the world.
And believe it or not... NOT all countries have the same style of news as us, nor the same priorities, as us, per what they decide to show, on the news for the public to see.
It is, very.... reality jarring.
Because, the news we get here in the USA... is very, sanitized. It is very, controlled. And we do not see... actual WORLD news in its rawness from all viewpoints. Like other countries do have, in their news. But also per other TV show that are on the networks.

Every culture, has some sort of "religious" belief.
And it is not always, a "national" religion.
Forced or chosen.

AND..... people need to know and discern that.... a "culture" is NOT the same.... as religion.
Many people, equate a culture with a religion.
And it is TWO very different, things. Entirely.
ie: the American culture... is what religion? There is no SINGULAR answer to this. Because, the American "culture" is not the same, as a religion.
ie: the Hawaiian culture, is what religion?
ie: The Japanese culture, is what religion?
ie: What religion is Ireland? Canada? Tahiti?
Yet, people assume that being Middle Eastern, is, a religion.

And on and on.

Culture and "religion" are 2 different things.
Just as a person's Nationality... does NOT, denote a person's culture nor religion. Either. These are all different things.

ie: A Middle Eastern person... is NOT necessarily, Muslim.
And visa versa.

And anyone of any culture or of any nation, and anyone of any "religion" can.... have, a faith.

You're basic Judaic/Christian/Islamic traditions all come from the same part of the world.
They borrow heavily from each other as well as from what ever else was being practiced at the time they were forming up.
A religion might shape a culture to a certain degree, but more often the culture shapes the religion.
You can have radicals/terrorists from any religion and every religion has them.

I don't think that it's so much about what people "know", rather what they "believe". I've met people who are deeply connected to their faith or religion and don't profess their beliefs to be the only way, but there are an awful lot of people who want to believe that their beliefs are correct and others are wrong. In my experience, the people who are secure in their faith are the ones who aren't threatened by someone else's, and therefore have no need to argue religion.

If people were to really study and compare different religions from an intellectual perspective, I think they'd be surprised at how similar they are.

The answer to your question in your subject line is "No". We won't find out until we die. That's a good reason to be accepting of others' beliefs.

P., I actually think that a lot of people who are not accepting of the possibility that they may be wrong is because they are so insecure in their personal life. In order to feel better about themselves, they feel that they have to down others.

Dawn

I think the need to demonize the "other" is a primal instinct, probably necessary for survival.

It's a biological fact that in nature, two species never compete for the exact same resources without either 1) one of the two species is forced to adapt to seek different resources, or 2) one of the species becomes extinct. There is never a mutual sharing of the same resources, among any species.

Therefore, competition, which takes a myriad of forms, is built into the dna of all living creatures. So I guess people can be forgiven for this weakness, to an extent.

The "big three" religions all have the same basic principals and they all worship the same god (basically) just under a different name. and the fact is America WAS NOT founded on the principals of the Bible, but on the idea that every man should have freedom of religion and that there should be a clear line drawn between government and religion, separation of church and state.

If someone gave me a penny for every time I prove someone wrong I could make a healthy career of it.

I look at this and find your idea of why separation of church and state to be inaccurate. A closer description would be no forced alterations of your belief structure. No government sponsored religion.

Even my definition is based on my perception, and flawed for it.

I guess I am having trouble understanding why you would start this thread complaining that some feel my path is better than your path when that is exactly what you are doing here.

I don't know, I am just not following your logic.

Most of modern thought is reactive in its entirety, and as such, it has its natural other that defines it. Christianity derived from jediasm, and now it has other "others."

This is just the way modernism, and its inherent dependency on this sort of dialectic, works.

(Sorry, i studied epistemology, how we know what we know, so I thought id give you a simple philosophical answer.)

No. Saying that the US is based on "biblical principles" is a drastic oversimplification. The mixture of religion with philosophy was very different in the 1700's than it is today. Some of the founding fathers held beliefs closer to our current "religious right," but many of them were closer to Deists in their beliefs. It is more accurate to refer to the concept of "natural law" than biblical law. The founding fathers took their "self-evident" beliefs from concepts that they felt were so basic to human existence that they transcended any specific religious doctrine. Hence, the possibility of separating church and state while maintaining a country with a moral compass. That's just my take on what I have learned after years of studying both literature from that time and the law and I only have a very basic picture of how this country came together. I would to venture say that the vast, vast majority of people who swear that the founding fathers were all religious zealots could not tell you the difference between Madison's fundamental philosophy and that of Jefferson.
We don't know, we give it a good guess, we may even try to do a little study before we guess, but it's still a guess. And that's talking about ideas set out a couple of centuries ago, not a couple of millennia.

I think that being educated about other religions brings a measure of understanding. You don't have to agree with any of it, but at least you can understand and appreciate other beliefs.

I'm not talking about extremists, and those seem to abound in ANY religion, but I think we tend to fear what we don't understand.

I know too many people who believe that if you aren't on board with their faith or the way they execute that faith, you're destined to an eternity in hell.

As humans, I think that we should be the best people we can be, exercise our faith without harming anyone else or harping on converting people.
What we do with our own lives is all that we ultimately have to answer for.

All my life, my mom has had this little plate hanging in our house. She still has it.

It says,
"If you do not believe as I believe, it proves that I do not believe as you believe, and this is all that it proves".

Short, to the point. You can't get more bluntly honest about things than that.

I have shaped my philosophy about things around that saying because it's not for me to judge other's beliefs.

Just my opinion.

I would challenge the assumption that this country was founded on 'biblical principles'.

Can you (or anyone) give examples in the Constitution (which after the Articles of Confederation is the only document that carries any legal weight - the Declaration of Independence does not, nor do the Federalist Papers)?