4 Year Old Seems Insecure

Sorry to the grandma and father in this case, but I don't feel it is right to emotionally blackmail a child into anything! Guilt is a strong emotion generrally used as a weapon of manipulation.

If the child doesn't want to go with the father, then accept that. Talk with the child and if the child changes his mind leter, take him to his father's. Do you know why he doesn't want to go? Is there something (or someone) there that upsets him? Talk with him. It could be nothing more than an indecisive child. Exercise patience and understanding.

I was unclear on the point that said Clay doesn't see his father on every visit. Is that right? Only the father has visitation -- no one else. So don't allow Clay to go with anyone else. If the father can't get him, he can't go. If the father is getting him and dropping him somewhere, file for a modification of visitation.

Sorry, I deal with a 3.5 year old that has to go one weekend a month to his "biological" father's house...kicking and screaming. They force him to call him Daddy even though my husband has raised Hayden since he was 3 months old and calls him Daddy. He hates to go and my ex forces him...so sorry and wish I had some better advise. Some people just can't grow up and be adults for the children's sake...it's sad!

It is not up to you to force your son to visit his father. If the father comes to get the child, and the child doesn't want to go, then the decision is Daddy's- to force the child to go, or to leave without him. That is not the same as you blocking visitation. I would not let anyone talk to your child on the phone. Everything should come through you. I don't think your ex cares. He is doing this for his mother. Get that counseling. They are messing with your child's mind.

Hi A..
First, I just want to say I feel the most for your son Clay in this because he is not an adult and still a child and being put in the middle of something he absolutely cannot control.
Even right now he is and will be for a long time, looking to you, his parents, and even grandparents in some cases, on how to deal with life, namely, drama or confusion. And guidance, thereof... It just sounds like unfortunately a classic case where some of the adults (not you) are acting like a child, and the child is supposed to be the child, you know? And he has all those emotions to sort out and figure out what to do w/them as much as a four year old mind can. Put yourself in his shoes in other words, and I would tell this to the exgrandparent as well when it is a time she seems non-condemning and open.
And my guess is that when Clay hears and sees that adults/parents/family are not able to be pleasant w/one another or come to agreement, or even 'act right', etc. then he feels let down and probably scared and confused and doesn't know who he is supposed to lean on or trust.
As for drama and mouthing and all that goes along w/and in most any family in these situations, I would suggest you look at the big picture of you and your family or you and Clay and that no matter what, take a stand today that you won't let certain things or people or what they say control you or affect you and your family unit, in a negative way.... know how your child is supposed to be raised and stand firm in it, meaning, don't let an exgrandparent henpeck you or boss you around or get you upset b/c of some statement such as 'I guess you know I won.' I can't think of anything more childish than a statement like that.
I would steer clear of the drama as much as I could and protect Clay from that as much as I could. By the way, my kids love my husband and me dearly, but from time to time (not so much now but in the past) they too have thrown a bit of a fuss or fit about not wanting to leave 'Granny and Pop-Pops.' Or whomever's house, so some of that is just that is just being a kids or that the child just doesn't want to go and maybe even he is tired from everything!
If there is a 'next' time his Dad tries to pick him up or anyone for that matter, and he is doing the same thing, just know he'll get over it and love him through it... stay positive, talk him through it, even if he cries or screams through the whole ride home, he will get over it. He does not need to see Mom or Dad or whoever, give in and learn this as a normal way of either getting his way, or the general nature of how things work. Or are supposed to. :) I hope this helps.
And I commend you for inquiring about your child on this matter b/c it speaks of who you are as a person and that obviously you want the best for them. Remember, we are all (Mothers) that are teaching and showing our kids daily how to grow up and one day become a loving, responsible and respectible adult. I sometimes have to remind myself of that daily! :) Best Wishes and God Bless you.

Ex-grandmother needs to be courteously reminded that the person who suffers most from a divorce is the child(ren) and her guilt trips only compound the problem. Both parents and all family members should be aware of a growing child's sensitivities, especially since they are compounded by the confusion generated by a divorce. If she is not mature enough to handle a calm and non-confrontive discussion about exactly whose feelings need to be the primary concern, you might mail her articles about children growing up in divorced families and talk with the father about the problem. If he can't help you with the problem and it's obviously causing your child emotional distress, you could ask the court to restrict visitation to the father only. However, I know as a single mom myself, it's tough finding the time to document everything that goes on and keep up with the piles of paperwork required to support your position. In the end, your child will appreciate your efforts to take the high road when it comes to mudslinging, but you'll have to work hard with him on how to play fair in the meantime. Best of luck - it's hard to believe there are adults out there in similar situations who forget that children don't have the emotional "stability" adults do and don't know how to handle the ex-grandmother's type of guilt.

I know how hard it is to be in the middle in a situation like this. I know you want to protect your child but you also need to protect yourself. I have a friend who had many (10) children with her husband and then when they divorced several of the kids went with him and several stayed with her, the ones with her were all school age. Her youngest daughter would cry for days when it was time for a visit. He had several specific weeks of the Summer set apart for vacation time, it was his family reunion each year. It also fell on the time of Summer when our youth group had camp and the community had music camp. The mom tried to keep the daughter 1 time and he took her to court for violating the visitation order and she ended up paying court costs and still lost. They tried when the girl was a teenager and he still won in court then too. Needless to say the courts are overwhelmed with parents who can't work things out for themselves.

He obviously doesn't really want to visit his child or he wouldn't pawn him off on his Mother all the time. I think I would tell him I will be here at such and such time for you to pick him up and I'll be home on Sunday at this time for you to drop him off. That will keep the grandmother from being able to manipulate you and the child.

I would say that when he says he doesn't want to visit it falls to you to really build it up so that he will want to go. I know everyone else said differently but he has a legal right to see this child. Legally a four year old is not able to choose to visit or not. He isn't mature enough to understand. He just wants his mommy.

Also I would say sign up a local community mental health center and have a councelor work with your child so that they can keep a record of what your son says about stuff that goes on. When you have enough evidence that your son is being neglected or mentally abused then you will have a credible witness who is able to testify on his behalf.

I think the child comes first!!! Period! And to be frank I see nothing wrong w/ telling your child that Grandmother has some sickness and its not always seen but in the head and mind. I agree that its not a good thing to ever speak unkindly of his other relatives, but I also think that at one point you should tell him that Grandma loves him but sometimes she doesnt know how to show it. And next time she does the guilt trip to the child DONT let him go anywhere w/ her. At this point the Father has visitation rights now the grandmother. I would also check into some local free mental health care cause I can assure you that you are NOT alone and other are dealing w/ the same thing. A profressional can help you talk w/ your child so the child does not feel burdended. Cause it will eventually harm the child into thinking he is at the root of people being unhappy. You know how children feel that anything going on around them is their fault.

For what its worth this is my 2 cents. But I do recommend that you contact some local mental health officials for help. It may also help in the future if something should come up legally.

A.,

The grandmother is wrong (by the way, she may be your ex, but she is still your son's grandmother), and you need to try to talk to her when Clay isn't along, or is asleep. Tell her that her son needs to make up his mind whether he is a dad when he is supposed to be, or just when he wants to be, let him grow up and fight his own battles. If it is alright with you, tell her you know she is the person responsible for your son at her house and you don't mind, but if she continues to bad mouth you in front of your son, you won't be on her side. When Clay doesn't want to come you won't urge him to visit her or his dad. Making a 4 year old cry, by feeling sorry for his dad is a low blow in anybodies' book, let alone a grandmother! A grandmother is supposed to be a person to whom a child can turn for love and attention, not pressure and torture, emotionally, not threatening. My blood starts to boil, just thinking about it. :o) I AM a Grama!

B. M.

A.
The sadness of the situation is how it affects your child. I raised three stepchildren that had a mother that argued about everything, when the kids were with us. It is already a hard situation for them, so the adults need to make the issues simple. These were the rules we set:

1. The children were always the #1 issue.. We would do what was in their best interest, not ours, or grandparents.
2. When they were with us, they followed OUR rules. When they were with her, they followed her rules.
3. On holidays we accepted what the courts had told us to do, and learned how to eventually share the holidays. Every year it would change, but situations changed, and things would work out okay. We each ended up with quality time.
4.If someone feels like they got there way, so be it. See how the child feels before you send him back. If he went back and really did not want to, no one really got what they wanted.. Only your son payed the price.
5. Grandparents, rather ex or not, are important in children's lives, but not if they are bad influences. When children go through any family issues, they need positive support. They need to be grandparents and leave the personal issues to the parents. { I am a grandma.}
Don't send him back to please anyone. You and the father do what is best for your son. Rather together or not, he can still have the best of both parents. He needs you both to be there for him. He is growing and maturing in many parts of his life right now. Everything needs to be as positive as possible.

Good Luck Just always try to think what is in the best interest of your son.

Let us know how things go
S.

Wow - what a dilemma. It sounds as if the grandmother is unreasonable on many levels, so perhaps talking to her directly is out of the question? Can you talk to the father and get him to intervene and act like an adult? (Sorry if that sounds judgmental). You may have to get visitation changed to supervised ones. I absolutely would not allow the grandmother to talk to your child on the phone (no controls there), and in person only when you are with your son. Good luck hon - I know it's tough but you are going to have to be tougher than the situation. I suspect you are.

I would speak to my ex-husband and let him know that you feel like his mother is stooping as low as making Clay feel bad when he does not want to visit, and that you do not feel this is healthy for him. And in the future this really could create him to have issues, if not already. Let him know that you are okay with visitation, but it must be in the best interest of CLAY! Also, let him know that the grandmother speaking negatively about you in front of Clay is again, not healthy for the child. And if you husband cares whats best for Clay, he will speak to his mother.

And if your husband does nothing about this, then speak to the grandmother yourself. And if I was you, I would not allow the grandma to speak to Clay without it being on speakerphone, and if she crosses the line and starts making him feel bad, HANG UP! You are looking out for your child, and whats best for him. Let her know that you will be monitoring the phone call and that if you feel she says something ugly or tries to upset Clay in anyway, you will hangup the phone. Do not let her manipulate the child, it only will hurt Clay in the longrun.

I am a mother of three adopted children. Until our adoptions were finalized we were required to visit with bio-parents and grandparents, and these were the guidelines we followed.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
A.

My advice - DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT! I don't know where you live or if your custody arrangement was filed with the court but if the Paternal family is going to play head games with your son then you should do something about it NOW. And that something would be to keep records and perhaps 1) suggest family counseling with both sets of grandparents present or 2) propose a change custody until they can behave.

You can't make your former spouse be a responsible parent now, or in the future. If he doesn't want to spend time with Clay, keep Clay at your place. Make it known to Clay that his daddy loves him but can't spend time. Maybe his dad works too much or perhaps just has other priorities.

From my husband's perspective growing up in a split family where neither of his parents wanted to be responsible, he would have rather had no contact then be left alone in his room - he later moved in with his grandparents. They were his saving grace and still are.

I do not think you should threaten grandma but if you ever had a good relationship with her, then you need to come back to that and let her know it's not a good idea to put this kind of pressure on a child - of any age. If she wants to see your son, her grandchild, then she should just be up front and tell you and you should let her - with a proper schedule/plan in place. It's important for your son to feel wanted and loved and welcomed in both families.

Dear Ann,
You sound like a good mother! It's apparent that you cannot talk openly with your ex-grandmother, so I would write her a long letter explaining how her words hurt your son, her grandson. Explain that when someone talks about the parents to the child, they hurt the child. Let her know that if she continues the negative talk, her grandson will not want to visit her when he becomes older and she will miss out. Then I would cc a copy to the dad. Always continue to uplift the father to his son; your son will love you for it. He does not know the man that you knew, he only knows him as his father. And last but not least, pray for the father and grandmother, you will see a difference.

She is not his father if he is not seeing his father you should make it court ordered he not see her until she can straighten up her act. My friend was going threw the same thing (the g ma was heavy drinker though) and until she moved far away from his father did his behavioral problems cease. not that your son has any but it may lead to it. This obvioulsy is not int he best interest of Clay. So sad when grown people especailly grandmothers have to act this way...

You might consider monitoring all the phone conversations to start. I hate when kids are used as weapons, ultimately, they're the ones who suffer the worst. You're the mom, and what you say should be what goes. I forsaw that issue and actually added it to my divorce decree - in the event of an argument, I win by default. Tell Gramma if she cant play nice then she cant play at all. Required visitation doesnt include her. It does however include Dad, if he cant visit his own son without tossing him off to Mommy Dearest, then that can be taken up with DHS. If your son is freaking out about going off with Dad, I would also try to find out why. Okla Healthcare Authority has a child counselor - Lois P. - that might be able to help in that area if needed. Good luck, I know what a battle like this can be like :}

My mother-in-law was this way with my step daughters. As the child get's older the more controlling the grandmother will become if you don't stop it now. People like her do love their grandchildren but it's really more about control or mental illness on her part. The other responders are correct - it is the father who gets visitations not the grandmother and if she calls again don't let your son talk to her, hopefully you have caller ID so you won't have to pick the phone at all when she calls. Protect your child, two out of my three step daughters are messed up because of the stuff my mother in law put them through as they grew up. Fortunately one of my step daughters saw through her grandmother and has chosen to stay away from her so she can't affect another generation of children in our family.

It sounds like you have a difficult situation on your hands. If the grandmother is disrespectful of you then perhaps you shouldn't allow your son to go over there. If his father is the one that is supposed to have visitation then there is no reason your son HAS to go to his grandmothers. I know you said that you don't get along with her but maybe if you tell her that if she continues to disrespect you in front of your son then you will not allow him to go over there any longer. Good luck to you and I hope everything works out for you and your son!

Hi A.;
I too am a single parent with the father having visitation. It is stated in our court papers that neither one of us is to talk about the other parent negatively. I wonder if yours states that and whether you could ask your lawyer to amend yours or at least let the grandmother know you will be adding it to the papers if she does not cease and desist talking about you in front of your child. All she is going to do is to make your child resent her for talking about his mom. So, she will be paying the price for her behavior one day. Good luck with this; I know it's hard being a single parent sometimes.
Y.

A.,

Talk to your ex husband aka Clay's father. You and he are the parents and will be making many decisions about your son's welfare for years to come. Both of you have to come to an understanding so that Clay will feel loved and secure. Dad should discuss with his parents what the rules are and be specific, ie you will not disrespect Clay's mom or you will not be allowed to see him. It is hard but always keep Clay's best interests in mind.

God Bless - never give up

Don't ever let your child talk to another adult on the phone alone. If you had been on the line you could have stopped this. I always put my phone on speaker when my ex calls for this exact purpose, I can prompt my daughter to change the subject or I can put an end to it myself.

Most states do have the provision that you are to do nothing to harm the relationship with the other parent. If your ex doesn't have him, you might ask your attorney what to do...She doesn't automatically get custody because your ex doens't want him...That decision can be made by the courts as well.

My court order says that my ex gets my daughter, and if he doesn't pick up and drop off then I don't have to send her. Her paternal grandparents said in court that they wanted to see her and the courts said that was a separate matter and that the state we were in had no rights for grandparents as long as the parent was living because the parent should take them for visits. They also said that if they couldn't see her on their own terms then they wouldn't see her, and the judge and I both said, "guess you won't be seeing her then will you"

I know it's stressful, and I don't know what I would do in your situation, but I do know that 4 is too young to be on the phone with his grandmother or your ex alone...too much can be done that you can't stop...I know you can't stop what's going on in their home, but you can stop it on the phone and in yours.

Good luck! and God bless.

M. and Amara 8/25/01

Hello! I am a divorced mom as well, my issue isn't with my ex-husband. My issue (similar to yours) is my new mother-in-law and my step kids. I am the only mother my 3 and 5 yr old step children have known. My mother-in-law was 'mom' until I came into the picture, which in the beginning she was thrilled with but that didn't last long. Anyway, she does the same thing with my stepchildren as your ex mother in law does. We are always battling something or something she said in ugliness to me. Unfortunately, you are probably in for a long road that will HOPEFULLY over time get better (my situation has not). You just have to stay consistent with your child and be the adult since apparently she can't. Stay tough with her when needed, you will make it! All my prayers go out to you, it isn't easy at all. Stay strong!

I was a single parent for many years. I raised my oldest 2 daughters and faced the ordeals of divorce and the family matters that come with it.
The first years were the hardest because we were learning to adjust and accept each others'new reality. My ex re-married and had another son and my girls would share with their father and new family whenever possible since some of those years we were living in different States.
At times the adults, dad, his wife and me, had to sit down and discuss situations. There were times when my ex-husband just separated himself from his daughters (that happens often).
I seeked help from a social worker and used counseling Christian programs at times.
Don't let your son's grandmother play a power/guilt game with you or your son. If she provokes you, my humble suggestion is to either cut the conversation or switch to another subject politely but arguments are useless. If you work with your attitude, eventually she will need to withdraw or stay quiet. When talking to your ex-husband, do it in a neutral place like at a cafe-dinner over lunch or at place where you can have some coffee while talking. My suggestion is to pin point how much you and him love Clay and that you feel now is the time to work out some common ground for Clay's benefit. Tell your ex that you need him as the father of your son(make him feel important, part of your son's life) and at times he will need to sit down with his mother so the Fathers'Day situation can be avoided. Try not to go over the "she said", "I told her..." tone. Grandma is your exhusband's mom, and she is probably playing manipulative games with him, he'll need to outgrow those issues by himself, you can't change his relationship issues but you can try your best to advocate for your son, and that is the common ground between your ex and you, nothing else but your son, matters.

If you feel overstressed, seek help, counseling helps, find support among church groups. Mostly seek guidance from God, by ourselves is hard, very tough but I discovered God by His Son Jesus was always there to lift me up and wipe my tears!
Many hugs, you can contact me if you wish!
God bless you, R.

Dear A., I am so sorry that you and your son are having to go through all of that mess. I wish that I had an easy fix for you, but I would say that I wouldn't let "ex-grandma" talk to your son on the phone again while he is with you. It is hard to control what happens while he is away, but you certainly can cotrol what happens while he is in your care. I am glad to hear that you are taking the high road and not speaking ill of them in front of your son. Keep it up. It will pay off.

Good luck to you - I hope it gets better.

if that grandma doesn't have any more sense than that I wouldn't let her talk to him on the phone anymore. if he can't hear her she can't hurt him.

See we are also on the receiving end of the negativity. I have a child with my ex me and him get along and no one talks badly about anyone in front of the child or to the child. Now my husbands ex who has custody of his kids, talks bad and the kids repeat it to us (you know they can't make it up, especially when 1 is only 3). We refrain from saying anything about any of them in front of the kids when we have them. It isn't fair to the kids and it is actually wrong. If it is in your court order that you must refrain from it, or in a court statute in your state, you can take the matter to court. My first action though would be to record the phone calls from her to you (if you are allowed to in your state) Then write a letter to her and your ex so it is wirtten down, send it certified mail so there is a record of them receiving it. That way if it doesn't change you have covered your basis for stating it is occuring. It isn't fair to put the children in an adults position. They are children let them be free of worries.

You can't keep the child from going to his father's if it is in the court order. By law he has to go, until he is old enough to make that decision and the judge agrees to it. But by law he has to go. I know it sounds harsh but it is actually in the best interest of the child to let him try and form a bond with the other parent. Now what he does with the child on his visitation is up to him, unless stated otherwise in the court order. He can leave the child with whom he feels is a reliable person, especially a family member (grandmother). Just as you can do the same when he is in your care. Because he is a parent as well. If you cna prove there is other issues going on (such as the bad mouthing of you) then there is something you can do. But otherwise it is up to the father how they spend their time together.

I was also reading the other's responses about monoriting phone calls. BE CAREFUL WITH THIS. Conversations between parent and child are priveleged and cannot be monitored. You can however monitor your conversations (if your state allows) with other individuals. But NOT children and parents. I am not sure about grandparents, but I think you can with them... just not the father.

personally i would set up supervised visits with the grand parents and father due to them all being irresponable where the visits are concerned. i also would write down documents of all phone calls and actions, dates, times and what is said and how your son reacts to the calls and visits. this way if you have to take them to court you will have documatation. take needed photos. and always get copies of everything. orinigal for you and copies for the courts. they all need to grow up and quit putting your son in the middle of it. cause it effects him more then anyone else. print this out and copy it. they need to see it. they need to work with you and most of all consider your son's feelings. you are all related to him. and family should work together, rather you are with the other parent or not. also it really is between you and his other parent. his parents need to stay out of the decsions to where your son is concerned. and i would moniter all calls and if you see that your son is even starting to get upset take over the phone call. dont let them get to him. been there in oklahoma

I suggest that you let her know that you will not permit that kind of behavior. You hare happy to have her in his life, but only so long as she is not acting inappropriately. If it happens again, she will lose phone privileges and/or you will discuss the issue w/ your attorney-she may not have rights, but do consider that the court is not generally going to see extended family as a bad thing, so you will need to be sure that you have acted appropriately in addressing the issue so as not to put yourself in a bad position if your ex starts complaining. Not sure how you and ex tried to convince him to go, but unless there was something bad happening that he didn't want to go, he's not really old enough to make a choice. Tantrum shouldn't have been given in to, but maybe with the change in routine, it might have been helpful to offer to let daddy hang out at the house, or for everyone to go somewhere together in public assuming you & ex could do so w/o too much tension.

I would certainly stay in prayer about this situation. I would still allow Clay to visit with them, however, if this behavior continues from her, I would stop all visitations but she would certainly be aware of why I made this decision. Do you think this would affect Clay, does he enjoy being with them? If it's not that crucial to him one way or another, I would certainly keep him away because that's not right. Then again, God knows best, so just pray...

My parents divorced when I was about 4 also and my dad's mother was the same type. However, my dad was positive that I would not be affected by the divorce and he told his mom NOT to call me. If your son's dad won't do the same, in this day of technology, BLOCK HER PHONE NUMBER. She has no rights to him except through her son. I would not allow him to talk to ANYONE on the phone who made him feel bad (not a family member or friend). The grandmother should be completely ashamed by her behavior. We must protect our children in every way possible. His childhood should be as wonderful as possible and in my case divorce didn't affect my comfort level at all. This was the best thing for my parents and they both agreed to work out all situations that involved me to the best for ME (not them!). My entire family continued to get along and everyone would join together for school events and celebrations. Now my children share in this relationship with both sides of my family. If there was a family member who was going to act nasty after the divorce, it was their decision and they couldn't spend the time with us. CUT HER OFF and keep him away from her. He deserves better. He should shed no tears from this situation.

I don't have any words of wisdom. My present MIL manipulates thru my husband. She doesn't like me and never has (feeling has become mutual) so she guilts my husbands and scares my 3 yr old. He doesn't like her, and hubby gets mad at me saying its my fault. Whatever. He knows how he feels.

Your ex MIL and my MIL need to both grow up and look out for the best interest of the child- not themselves.