Can We Stop Dumbing Things Down, Please?

Sheldon, oh sorry I mean L.,
I would also suggest you home school or get on the text book committee.

I dont care if Pluto is a planet, a dwarf star, moon, or Disney dog. Its out there and thats all that matters. When kids play teather ball it doesnt matter what its called. They will learn centrifugal force or centripetal acceleration(never heard of it) but all that matters is that ball goes around the pole. Maybe someone is making things so complicated and that is why we have so many kids who dont understand ANYTHING.

ok, real quick, my problem with early education is that they introduce advanced concepts to very small children.. a two year doesnt need to preached to about overpopulation, human origins, deforestation, greenhouse gases, religion etc. etc. etc.in my day, the PARENTS introduced these advanced concepts, NOT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. if i wanted a teachers opinion about these concepts, i would ask them personally. its not the teachers JOB to tell my child who i should vote for either, again, if i wanted the teachers opinion, i would ASK them.
K. h

Well, of COURSE it's possible to raise independent thinking children with analytical minds. I have, and we are about 7/8ths through the average American Suburban Public School System.

However, it's equally important to raise them with tolerance, acceptance, and respect for those from differing schools of thought.

It's the difference between raising nice kids who are smart, and raising kids who are elitist snobby annoying bores.

:)

As an MIT grad and a Mensa member, to me you are coming off as rude and stuck up. You are using words that most of the general population will have to open another tab to look up...and whose ego does that serve? Yours. It's important to know your audience. Is this really the place to vent about centrifugal force vs. centripetal acceleration? I'd just like to point out that even Newton called centrifugal force a "fictitious force," so the idea has been out there a LOT longer that you've been complaining about it not being a real thing. I mean, so what? The last time I checked, I can't have negative seven apples, either, but the "non number" has it's application.

There's nothing wrong with knowing how to properly define a word, but there is NOT something wrong with simply not knowing (and not caring) about the definition of all the following words: centrifugal force, centripetal acceleration, vector of force, fallacious, pedagogy, esoteric, diatribe. These are all words you felt were necessary to your question...and I'm telling you right now, most people in our society would have to look those words up. It is vain and unproductive for you to speak this way to most people.

I too care about the education of my children, which is why I do not trust it to public or private schools and have taken it into my own hands. I am also relieved by the fact that my children have learned who God is and I am EXTREMELY relieved that they are saved. I care for the eternal souls of my children over whether or not they believe in a fictitious scientific principle. In the end, what's going to matter?

I think you really owe a lot of people in your life an apology, if this is how high handed you behave on a regular basis. I'm not trying to be harsh, either...I'm very keen for observing the truth.

One of my huge pet peeves is people who talk about things like they actually understand it and then complaining that everyone else is stupid.

Centripetal acceleration is the rate of change of tangential velocity where centripetal force is the net force causing the centripetal acceleration of an object in circular motion as explained by Newton's second law.

For an object in a circular motion to continue to stay in a circular motion it must have force either pulling, as in an object orbiting, or pushing, in the case of a roller coaster.

Honestly you strike me as someone who reads an article thinks it sounds good and takes that observer's words as the truth without research or as I call them a pseudo intellectual.

To get an idea of where you are coming from I looked at some of your past posts. One that jumped out was your critique of Boehner's rebuttal to Obama's state of the campaign speech. You stated that he ignored that revenue can be increased. Is you were to look back at past changes in tax rates you will find that regardless of tax rates the percentage of GDP that is collected in taxes stays between 17 and 19 percent. It is currently at around 14% due to poor economic policy. I believe that was what Boehner was going for in his speech, glad to clear that up for you.

Your post is one of my pet peeves.

I haven't read the other responses but here's my take on things:

Like it or not, the school system is set up to educate an average student, in average subjects. If your student happens to be of above average intelligence then he or she can enter a gifted program. If you feel that your student is not getting a well rounded or full education then you provide that to her (whether that be through a tutor, yourself, books, google...what have you). Personally, I feel that it is MY job to educate my children above and beyond what the educational system does for them.

I happen to be very well versed in numerous subjects and I also happen to have an IQ well above average which makes me *smart* enough to know that I know very little in the scheme of things and to expect others to know what I know is ridiculous. When I am speaking to someone about a subject, I speak to them so that they may understand and, yes, sometimes that means "dumbing down," as you put it. I prefer to think of it as reaching out and/or connecting to the 'audience.' Why in the world would I blather on about mesons and muons to someone who doesn't understand (or care about) quarks and leptons?

Oh my, I believe your kids teachers are in for a rude awakening. If you are going to take this stance on what is being taught in the schools, I suggest you home school. Otherwise, be prepared for a lot of eye rolling and teachers avoiding you like the plague.

Let me make this more scientific to meet your not "dumbing down" criteria.

I believe your offsprings instructors are in for a unpleasant experience. If you strongly believe in the principals in which you are proclaiming, then I propose that you consider home education. Otherwise, be prepared for a generous amount of ocular rotations and these unruly educators avoiding you like the bubonic plauge.

I am bothered by people who are so bothered by it.

If you don't like it, be the change you want to see! Good luck rewriting every single text book and convincing the rest of the world YOUR theories are right.

Kind of hard to disprove that which has already been proven.

That's like walking into a random church and convincing the entire congregation that their God is wrong, but yours is right.

Good luck with THAT!

I think you really need to find a hobby or something. There are way bigger things that you'll be dealing with as a parent, trust me. Your kids won't be shattered to learn that they were taught something at a simpler level at an appropriate age and then learned a more complex version later.

1. As my teacher SIL says how can we expect expert teachers when teaching degrees and certificates don't require specialization in fields such as mathematics, physics, government, history (world or U.S. or country specific), the sciences, etc.? The best you can hope for are sweeping generalizations and cursory examinations of topics. Needless to say there will be misinformation and incorrect information abounding between the lack of credentials/understanding and the sweeping generalizations.

2. Colleges and universities can correct these deficiencies if you so choose to be educated rather than degreed there. I took plenty of courses outside of my degree field because I wanted to be educated and well rounded. Many others do the same. It is the point of college.

3. I hear you on the vector force - centripetal acceleration debate but most people don't. Why should they? They haven't taken nearly as many courses as others in those fields so they just don't know any better. I have no doubt I’d be in over my head in a medical or astronomy debate. It hardly makes me stupid. Just inexperienced in those arenas. There are plenty of resources at my disposal if I want to learn about any topic, though. I just have to find the will within in myself to seek out the knowledge and to engage/question the subject matter.

4. Learning is a lifelong pursuit. In any given field theories and understandings/interpretations do change. Information is not static.

WTH are you talking about? I must be a total goober since your whole first paragraph looks like gibberish to me. Are you trying to show off how very smart you are by using words and phrases that I am sure most of us don't use in our regular conversations? That's a pet peeve of mine.
L.

I thought centrifugal (outward) force was just the tendency to resist the centripetal (inward) force and continue going straight. Not really a force by itself, but it is reactive to centripetal, which still counts. I don't really think it's dumbed down, it's just misunderstood. And since young kids aren't physicists, it's more difficult to explain so that they grasp every part of the concept.

While I agree with you that we don't "come from apes," I think it's a confusing part of your question explaining oversimplification versus your opinion of right or wrong theory.

When my kids are in school, there are many things I will and won't look forward to. But I tend to think that if they're taught something whether it's oversimplified or misunderstood in my opinion, I will have the chance to further explain and clarify at home.

There are a lot of things that bother me.

People who say something is "very unique" - you can't have something that is "very unique" as unique is ONE OF A KIND.

Simple spelling errors, for example: their, they're, there -
We are going to their house.
Did you go there for the dance?
Your shoes? They're in the closet.

Alot - it's a lot. two words.

People who believe and kept the change that Tim Russert did back in the 1990's on "party colors" - Democrats are "RED" - Republicans are "BLUE".

The United States of America is a Republic.

people who "text type" here - u, 2, 4, y, etc. or prolly - oh my word!! it's PROBABLY - not prolly - saying this makes you sound lazy and incompetent in my book. Don't get me wrong - I DO NOT mind the HTH, JFF, SIL, MIL, those are fine - but the prolly and u, y and numbers instead of words...urgh.

People who say I want to "axe" you a question instead of "ask" you a question - again lazy.

Now answering your thoughts about centrifugal force - you are the parent. Teach them. Teach your children to think independently and not be a sheeple. Tell them what you believe and send them off to the library or computer to research themselves and tell you what THEY THINK. They don't have to think like you do - but they can learn to think for themselves.

As to evolving from apes...it is my belief that God made a lot changes before he got to humans. Again - you can state your belief and then have your kids research and think for themselves.

As to textbooks? It's truly amazing how much they have changed and made politically correct over the years. For example - they fail to recognize that Asians were brought over here as slaves as well to build the railroad.

Aaahhhh we could go on and on couldn't we? that's what makes our world a great place - we all have different experiences, likes, dislikes, opinions, thoughts and all - and what makes our country great - is we can still speak our mind!

Some of your complaints come down to semantics. Yes, centrifugal force is not an actual force, but it is a term widely used to express the effects of inertia. Often it's called a "virtual force". In high school I can see explaining this in detail, but in younger grades, yes, please, simplify it. You start simple and build on those ideas later. I am not sure what grade level you are thinking about with this example, but it's almost like teaching children to read before they know the alphabet.

Obviously the intent of your post is not to get into some debate over physics. Teaching is not what it once was, it has morphed into a state mandated curriculum and standardized testing. There are many amazing and wonderful teachers on this planet. But the shift has moved from truly educating to "getting by" and passing the test. The stress those tests put on teachers is absolutely incredible. I was a math teacher. It's interesting what some tricks students knew, with no idea why these applications work.

I feel that school should be an extension of what you teach at home. If you are bothered by the simplifications of things, you can extend that information at home. You can reteach, in a manner that is respectful of the teacher and the classroom. You can show things in a different light. Education is changing, so as parents, it's our duty to pick up the slack, to fill those voids and to supplement the basics they are learning.

y personal two pet peeves in education? Easy: We do not live in a democracy. We live in a constitutional republic. Democracy is rule by the masses, that is clearly not what we have. I always ask people to recite the pledge of allegiance for a refresher. The other is that Darwin said "survival of the fittest". He did not. Herbert Spencer did. Darwin disagreed vehemently with this phrase only giving in and using the phrase survival of the fit in the 5th edition. There is a HUGE difference between survival of the fittest and survival of the fit and this has colored our dominant ideology in the US ever since.

But, having said that. Kids can only grasp so much of what is complicated. We have to teach them foundational ideas and then layer on the complexity.

I'm truly bothered by the Eurocentric 'white washing' of History. I find myself drilling the wrong info into my kids so they can make the grade, while having to explain the truth to them at the same time.

"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."

Sorry. Your question was so over my head that I decided to answer with a random quote, courtesy of Ferris Bueller. It felt fitting. Enjoy!

In all seriousness, my pet peeve is internet lingo and misspelled words.

Well . . . the centrifugal force vs. centripetal acceleration debate seems a bit esoteric to me.

:)

Have you considered homeschooling?

We do it, but even there you will find disagreements with the curriculum.

My pet peeves are poor grammar and spelling. For example, people (and WHY are there so many of them?!) who think that to make a noun plural, you add an apostrophe before the s. (Just for the record, an apostrophe before the s makes a word possessive.)

Right: moms
Wrong: mom's
Do any of you moms have advice for me on cloth diapers?
That is my mom's car.

Right: puppies
Wrong: puppy's
Those puppies are so cute.
My puppy's chew toy is getting worn out.

Or how about using "very" before the word "unique?" Unique means that there is nothing else like it, it is the only one. You can't be very unique; there aren't variations of uniqueness. It's like being a little bit pregnant; you are or you aren't.

I've got no clue about centripetal acceleration, but I am there with you on expecting things taught in school to be correct. And in being sort of curmudgeonly. :o)

well your certainly not "dumbing down" this question! However, there is plenty out there that would refute your theories.

I bet when they start teaching that we are a crossbreed of several Sapiens including the Neanderthal, you will go ape s**t.

Sounds like you need to volunteer on your states textbook committee. I have friends that did this. They also had strong "beliefs". They learned a lot. They also realized, if they really cared about something, to use that energy in a productive way.

I have a simple solution for you, homeschool. If that is not the option you seek then simply figure out how to get on the boards that determine what goes into the text books. Be mindful that you should be getting on the Texas boards since what Texas does, mostly everyone else follows. They even considered removing "evolution" all together.

Whenever my extremely intelligent better half complains about the stupidity of "normal" people, I remind him tongue-in-cheek that he is much more intelligent than the majority of the masses and he needs to be even that much more tolerant of their idiocy. *dramatic sigh* it's such a cross to bear.....

I agree. I was recently told that a therapist, a licensed practicing therapist, that she had no idea what I was talking about.

I was saying that our 5 year old stopped having brain function when he started having a temper tantrum and his brain stem was the only thing working, he was total Id. She looked at me like I was speaking Swahili and said Huh?

Then she proceeded to tell me that I use "those big words" to make people think I am much smarter that them...excuse me? What other words explain the exact behavior my grandson is exhibiting?

She then went on to tell me that I needed to use smaller words...she is no longer dealing with "our" issues. We transferred him to a different agency where he can visit with a person who is intelligent and works with a variety of different people who have various degrees, he can actually see a testing psychologist, can legally assign a diagnosis, and get an actual diagnosis.

I live in Texas and yes I do believe our school system continues to be dumbed down for the masses. You can't fail everyone because there is a series of never ending classes behind this one.

When I began college I was prepared and for that I am very thankful to the teachers and counselors gave me that option. Now high school students take remedial classes of high school courses in college for 2 years, sometime longer, to catch up.

When my children were in high school I encouraged my kids to take challenging classes so they would have that option too. However in some cases, school counselors and teachers would over rule me by telling my children they did not need this or that.

One of my children made As all through school and began his senior year near the top of his class and still needed remedial classes. How crazy is that? Teachers used to be able to prepare students instead of teaching a governenment designed standarized test. When is it going to stop?

I am tired of paying for public schools when clearly as a whole they are not doing their job. I also believe some of the problems are government control, some teachers became teachers for the wrong reasons and others don't have the skills and training to be effective.

There are some very good teachers out there but there are also some ill prepared teachers, a product of our schools, who are frustrated, and tired of beating their heads against the wall.

How can we exel as a nation when our children are not prepared to think Independently?

Not a fan of the way math is/has been taught - could show my kids how to do it, but they'd be counted wrong cause it wasn't done the "current" way -- which takes too many steps and half a ream of paper!

also - why is so much dumbed-down??
if kids want to play basketball, they have to strive to hit that 10' mark - they sure don't lower the goal!!

As far as wrok goes, I like when people can dumb things down. I don't think we need to use big words to define simple terms. I like to make things as simple for myself as possible. This also helps when I am training others who come in to do the same job.

As far as school, my issues go on for days. I just recently moved my daughter classes because of the issues I had with her teacher. They do math differently than we do it, and they have to show they understand what they are doing. They are looking for things in the text of stories that are so hard to find it's unreal.

I guess what I'm saying, is that it is my job as the mom to my 3 kiddo's to teach them what is right and wrong. They need to do school the way school wants them to do it to pass, but I can teach them right from wrong.

The Apes thing should start a big controversy. I don't believe in that at all. God made man the way he made him, and that's it. I don't believe for one second we came from Apes.

Not using proper grammar, and malapropisms a la George Bush, both drive me nuts.

Next day: OK, I just read more of these posts and just in case anybody is still listening, I want to point to the idea of multiple intelligences. I come from an extremely verbal family who all learns other languages easily--math, not so much. Someone else may have a lot of musical talent and be able to play any instrument, and barely know English. Just wanted to throw that into the thread.

What gets me is math.
Instead of just teaching them how to do it they first must teach them to guess. then they teach them to round the numbers before doing it , THEN they teach them how to do it.
o my geez just teach them how to do it in the first place.
Which is what I do when my daughter brings home her homework.
sounds like you'd be better off just homeshooling.

A while back teaching was a profession and people cared. Now it has become a business for profit. The profit is having x number of children in seats so that they (the schoolboard) get paid. It does not matter how bad or good the child performs so long as they are there. Holding back a child because they do not grasp what is taught is a big no no becuase it messes up with their money.

We end up with children who are passed along and come out of school not knowing much of anything beyond say 6th grade. This is the reason why kids going to college today have to spend 2 to 3 years getting up to speed to try to compete with the rest of the world. Everyone wants to take the easy road no one wants to challenge their abilities. When you do test your abilities and push through the wall you have a satisfaction of success that no none can take it away from you. But you do have to focus and you do have to limit a lot of outside activity to do so.

The social thing is this country has overtaken the ability to learn and push forward to prepare to be a productive person in society. We need so many scientists, engineers, docotrs and no one wants to put themselves through the extra years of deep heavy study to get to the other side. Hence, we have so many people from other countries doing what our own people could/should do but don't.

Since we are in a global world there is fierce competition to go to school and to become something. Other countries compete for slots into school as there are anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 people per slot. Now talk about pressure to perform. We in this country don't have that kind of emphasis on getting an education. We play around with a concept that we all have to go to college nothing thinking that we need people in vocations to help us with our day to day lives (automotive, a/c, and other).
Until we wake up as a country or republic we are going to be laughed at by other countries as seen as lazy and uncaring. The main emphasis for college is sports and it should be scholastic. When a person enters college on a sports scholarship and is injured he/she is out of school. But if you enter on a scholastic scholarship and play a sport you are still enrolled and can get a degree.

We do need to go back to the basics and teach the correct forms of English so that we do understand them. The texting thing has me upside down as I can't figure out all of the shortcuts and by the time I do get an idea I don't want to be bothered with the person.

Education is like a house if you don't build a solid foundation it does not matter what you put on top, it is going to fall down. And now you see that our system is failing and falling. I hope we can find a way to start over again and bring it back to its glory.

Off my soapbox and onto something else. I hope that my grammar has been correct and in its proper tense(s).

The other S.

PS I am still trying to find out what I want to do at 64.

EDIT The dumbing down theory is a way to make everyone "equal" in learning. But that is not the case. Many places students are tested and only the gifted or brightest are encouraged to continue onto college not the masses. We have devalued the meaning of further education and hence we have college graduates witihout a job. As my daughter would say, "Do you want fries with that?"

I'm not sure why these other ladies are criticizing you so badly. I agree with you, both of those things really irk me. You never said you weren't going to do anything about it, you have every right to vent about it here!
I hate it when they tell kids that St. Patrick killed all the snakes in Ireland. I swear EVERY St. Patrick's Day, my kids come home from school telling me they had to correct their teacher AGAIN this year for spreading that fallacy. It was in a lesson plan I had last year as a sub, the kids had to list which statement were fact and which were opinion. The textbook had it listed as fact. I didn't let that go uncorrected in my classroom that year.
I'm sure I could think of more. If I do, I'll edit this post ;)

The evolution phrase "We came from apes" isn't completely wrong. We have the same trunk, we just sprouted out into different branches - so in essence - the ancient species that spawned the apes, monkeys, and larger primates is the same that spawned humanity.

What bugs me in the school system is trying to force religion, however minute, into the public school system - as well as the pledge to the flag. I also hate how advanced math, which the majority of careers our children will have will never use, is considered standard.

I hate that music, arts, and physical recesses and classes have all but been pushed out.

My son agrees with you.- but what I have been told is that humans evolved from a common ancestor of chimpanzees, gorillas, etc. To say that humans came from apes is, biologically speaking, a misunderstanding since humans are in the great ape family Hominidae. He thinks it's sometimes regretable that Wikipedia can be a better source of information than some grade school textbooks, but we both think that simplification isn't as bad as indoctrination or at least the making permanent of false, or perhaps more precisely put, inaccurate teachings. It leads to a loss in general curiosity and when simplicity is indoctrinated then we can think of ourselves as people who conceive ideas as simple, and think them true. For example, in Pasteur's time, the simple answer for disease wasn't germ based, but that certain conditions were caused within individuals, like anthrax in sheep, or more importantly that the inanimate spontaneously generated life. My son thinks if a child is passionate enough about something, they'll seek the more objective answers, the rest can be enough to get A's in school. I say, further, that one cannot rely solely on the public school system-isn't NC ranked number 42 nationally? Believe me, by the time your child is applying to MIT, they'll know the difference between the over simplified and what is truly accurate.

Hi, L.:
Your question was very interesting. I had a very good education back in the 50's and graduated HS in 1960. What my concern about my education was from my home. I was taught to "shut-up" and "put-up." I did not learn how to make constructive decisions until I went to Bethlehem, PA, to the International Institute for Restorative Practices. I learned there to make decisions and to hold people accountable for bullying me around. I believe learning about social skills and doing good is important in today's world. How can I help make the world a better place to live? That is my question that I ask myself. Thanks for your question. It gave me an opportunity to share with you what was lacking in my education.
Good luck.
D.

i agree with the whole teaching of the big bang theory when in its name it's just a theory. so why are we teaching it then? if that's the case then God is just a theory or idea/ belief on how it all got started why not bring that into the picture as well? i cant understand how one teaching is any better thn the other. and evolution. they can't prove anything has evolved sense we havent been arund long enough to see it happen. but guess what...it's still being taught. something not possible (big bang and evolution) is still being taught to our kids as if it actually happened.