4Th Grade Math- Common Core

The "multiple of 12" comes from the fact that kids at this grade level have already mastered or are mastering their multiplication facts up to the twelves. So to me it's simpler than you stated - there are 2 twelves in 24, so 6 times 12 is the same as 3 times 24, which is 72.

It's not about just solving problems using rote memorization or by using long multiplication, which is what 24 x 3 would require at this age. Yes you're right in that the goal is to do more work - that way they'll learn greater flexibility of thinking, which is good not only in higher level math but also translates well into all other areas of academia. One of the coolest parts about teaching for me (I teach test prep to high schools part-time) is that when we're working through math problems, the kids will come up with all different ways of solving, including some strategies that I hadn't considered. Some are clunky and cumbersome, but some are very elegant and efficient.

I know it can seem ridiculous and tiresome at times to learn things using every method but the most obvious, but there really is a method to the madness. Just try to go along with it.

Well, most kids know their 12 tables but not 24s. So since they know that 24 is 2 x 12 then 3 x 24 is the same as 6 x 12 which they already know to be 72. I would think that is what they are looking for.

As a college math instructor, this seems like an invaluable question. Most of my students need to see the question asked the exact same way every time. The slightest change, and they can't cope. It's discouraging, and it keeps some of them from fulfilling their math requirement.

I think it's a great idea to stretch their minds and rethink the problem. Word problems usually aren't as easy as straight forward, numbers only problems, but that's how life works. The more a person can challenge themselves in math, the better they become at problem solving, in general.

They're learning that 24 is 12x2 and they want her to apply her 12 tables to solve the problem, so 12 x 6 is the same as 24x3.
They're applying the LOGIC and facts of their 12 tables, since most people don't memorize 24 tables! I'll bet if you ask her 12x 6 she'll know the answer but 24x3 she'll have to write to solve.

It may seem like a lot of unnecessary work for a simple problem but it is prep work for higher learning like long divisions and figuring out common denominators when it's time to learn how to add fractions with different denominators.

My kids are not in this grade yet. I am happy you gave a real example to show what is expected.

I keep on hearing vague things such as the principal saying "common core is more rigorous" but no examples. The teacher also said the math will expect the children to show how they got the answer not just the answer. So this makes sense, yet I didn't realize this is a new concept. Showing your work usually got partial credit even if the answer was wrong back in my day if the work showed you knew how to apply the concept (I never went to public school though).

Back to your word problem. Some children might want to write 24+24=48+24=72 which is not using multiplication of 12 (or any multiplication). What if the child wrote 6x12=72? Would this be considered incorrect since it is different from your (12 x 3) + (12 x 3)= 72, yet still the same answer.

Maybe I'm weird, but I always thought math problems were fun. But I have a feeling trying to teach is to my kids will be a challenge, especially if I hear "Mom that's not how my teacher wants us to answer it."

Read JB's response. She's dead on. As a former middle school math teacher, I wish I could send her a bouquet of flowers!!!

I can't answer your question because I can't do my kid's elementary school math (5th, 3rd, and 1st). I can do it - just not the same way they do it, the way they HAVE to do it.

I have a BS in Economics and Finance, an MBA with a concentration in finance, and my job has me handling millions of dollars on a daily basis - in short, I LOVE math! But not the way the kids are learning to do it now.

Ah-ha! Now we know to use the JB homework hotline. She gave a great answer.

I have a doctorate level degree (not in math, granted) and I think it is ridiculous too.

My homeschoolers think outside the box all the time when it comes to math facts, equations, etc. But to *require* students to jump through all these hoops to get a simple answer defeats the purpose of learning to do math.

We learn advanced math skills in large part to be efficient and and to be able to take on larger, more complex problems!

Good grief.

ETA: And does anyone ever consider what this stuff does to kids with dysgraphia? I would be very unhappy to see this in my kid's homework unless he was exempted from being able to write out and extended-length, unnecessary equation to show his answer.

I think the idea is to reinforce multiplication tables which are generally memorized up to multiples of 12. Are all the question based on multiplication tables?

Sometimes learning to adapt what you are taught to every day issues is common sense.

It seems like the point of the question is not to have the child find the quickest answer-obviously that would be by doing 3x24- but to have them understand numbers better and think through different avenues.

American kids have been plummeting in math scores by college BECAUSE they have all these random memorized quick facts as a foundation and really don't understand math well by the end of high school, often never reaching higher levels like calculus, etc. I think this is a great question and 4th grade is not too young for multiples of 12 to be considered. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with working and thinking twice as hard. That's what school is for. I don't know why schools don't just use proven top rated curriculums like Math-U-See or Singapore Math and leave the guess work out...but hopefully Common Core is good too.

Distributive properties of multiplication?

Kids have to learn math by different methods nowadays.
4th grade, is a grade level in which many things changes. Math being one of them.
My daughter encountered this in 4th grade too.
Ugh.
And the thing is, even if she got the right answer, doing it "my" way, she got it wrong because she did not do it the classroom way, the way THEY are taught it.
It is about learning the processes etc.

Anyway here is a link on various multiplication approaches:
http://www.aaamath.com/pro74b-propertiesmult.html
http://www.coolmath.com/prealgebra/06-properties/05-prope...

Jumping on JB's bandwagon!

I also wanted to add that I am really liking Common Core math so far. Yes, it's more difficult but there are so many ways to solve a math problem. I think it encourages them to think about it and not just copy examples the teacher did in class.

yeah JB!!! I second a bouquet of flowers!

Way back when SD was in elementary school, we had to sometimes get her to tell us what she thought the teacher explained and then occasionally write the teacher and ask for resources/explanation because it made no sense. This was before "common core". I would call the teacher if this continues to be a struggle/if what you came up with isn't what they really wanted. This just reinforces my personal belief that words should stay where they belong and out of math (I struggled in math when they introduced words and letters). See, the way I would do it is explain that 12x2 = 24 so 12 x 6 would equal the three tickets. Which would get us 72, but what are they really looking for? (WTH does multiples of 12 have to do with $24?) Unless they are looking for a pattern with multiples of 12...24, 36, 48....so that you could extrapolate that if 12s go up one in the tens and two in the ones, 24 would go up...wait, that doesn't really work.

I do not look forward to this nonsense.

That's the American math system...they try to get kids to conceptualize everything rather than just calculating it. Maybe there's value in there somewhere, but I found most of it to waste a lot of time. That's why we do Kumon...it's a nice complement to the roundabout American math curriculum.

The common core standards have changed math into more of word problems than number equations ... be prepared for MUCH more of this, it only increases. In fact, my son had questions like this in kindergarten math. I understand they are introducing algebraic equations via this style of questioning, but I agree it may not be the most traditional method. My understanding is they are trying to make math more relatable to "real life" issues to stop the age old question "When am I going to use algebra in real life?" If needed I suggest a tutor who is well versed in the common core standards to help get your child through these changes and questioning styles.

Well I am glad to see I'm not the only mom having issues with math however mine is in 2nd grade and in advanced class so is working on 3rd grade math already. By the end of the school year they will be working on 4th grade math. It is very hard to teach them how to do it when it is SO different than how we learned math. I'm so thankful my husband is so good with math. I hear all the time that is NOT how Mrs. So and So taught us and then she has a hard time teaching me how she was taught. I had a teacher friend of mine tell me that if she can teach me how she was taught that she then has the concept of it and it will "stick" better with her.

Here is hoping all of us mama's and dads get through this new math!!

it's called distributive property. i think. well, we just had something like that. i agree, useless but they got to to it.