Nobody Likes a Rat in This Age of Zero Tolerance

Snitches get stitches... or something like that.
There is a line between tattling and following the rules. Rule followers (we have one in the house) are always struggling when they witness non rule followers. Keep teaching him right from wrong and the rest will fall into place.

He's going to hear a lot of "you're not the boss of me." And they'll be right.
I'll tell you this much I know ( as the mom of a 5th grader) by 3rd grade or was solidly UNcool and social death to be "that kid."
Teach him to myob and worry about himself and let the other kuds do the same. Start now.

Our son felt he was an official enforcer of rules from 3 yrs old till about 6 yrs old.
It's a very common stage.
Don't fight it just put him in charge of something.
Ours liked to hold doors open for people.
It made him feel proud and people appreciated the help.

There is tattling, and there is informing.

The distinction is made because a child NEEDS to know that they CAN tell someone about something important like bullying, hitting, i************ t*******, etc., and that type of thing isn't "tattling". We SHOULD inform the teacher if something bad is going on and our kids need to know that and not be ostracized for it.

The stuff you're talking about is tattling - things that are not harmful/dangerous, but are not following the rules. This stuff is the teacher's/an adult's job to "police".

No, I wouldn't use the "nobody likes a rat" phrasing. I think that, at this age, the right thing to do is to go tell a grown-up if someone is unsafe.

They might be being made to feel unsafe by a bully, might be behaving in an unsafe way, or might be asking other children to be unsafe. Whatever it is, at this age he should be getting help to stop the unsafe behavior, and if he's unsure he should be encouraged to ask, "Teacher, is __________ unsafe?"

When he's a bit older he can start saying to his peers, "That's not safe, you guys should stop." before he goes to report. But for now, he doesn't really have a full understanding of what needs adult intervention and what doesn't.

Our school expect that before a child tells a teacher that they must try to handle the situation themselves. Step one is to tell the other child to stop the behaviour and why. If the child does not stop the behaviour than step two is to tell the teacher. I don't see why you would teach a child to "mind his own business". Instead teach a child to do what is right and not stand idly by while others break the rules. Is this the kind of future leaders we want?

I hope he keeps to those rules :-) 4 year olds tend to like to see what rules they can uninternalize :-) they develop selective listening too. :-)

I do teach my kids to stand up to bully's, but this is mostly with my almost 6 year old. It is at this age that they begin to understand "morality." In fact, I'm doing a bully/tease thing with my girlscout troop.

I think you don't need to worry about this stuff yet. Right now I'd teach your son to get an adult.

Rats are really kids not knowing how to handle the situation. They seek help because help is needed.

I too am a child of the 70s. I remember getting punched in the stomach by a boy when I was 10. Not much happened to him. But I do think it's important to teach my kids that the stronger is responsible for taking care of the weaker. If they see something going on, I hope they do speak up and defend.

Since he's 3, there's not much you can do but keep on him about it. He's not going to understand the nuance of when and when not to tell just yet. Heck, we still have to redirect our 7 year old at times. "You're not her/his mommy. Turn back this way."

Now that she's older we've talked about "tattleing" and the differences. One is telling in the hope of getting the other person into trouble, the other is telling to help another person. If it's not directly harming her or someone else, she's to let it go. If it's dangerous, she's to tell, if it's just naughty she's to walk away.

I get where you're coming from, really, but your post makes me think of my late grandmother's Yiddish-inflected phrase, "Why borrow trouble?"

At 3, your son isn't SUPPOSED to have a nuanced understanding of the distinction between the official authority rules and the unwritten peer-group rules. That represents a later stage in cognitive/social development.

By the time your son starts kindergarten, he'll be at a very different place developmentally, and I can almost guarantee you he'll have this figured out.

So, your son is right. And what he's doing sounds ridiculously cute. Your friend's husband is wrong. Score 1 for the preschool set ;)

And if not, then you can deal with it then. But why borrow trouble, for now? :

I think that there are a range of situations and as he gets older you will need to help him learn how to determine when to speak up. I understand what you mean about "tattling" which can be very problematic, but there are also situations where someone really should stand up. I have been reading up a lot on bullying because my older son is gay and is being bullied. There is a lot of really interesting research about the role that bystanders play in bullying (positive and negative).

My experience with the idea of "zero tolerance" and school policy is that the vast majority of administrators and teachers do not see the bullying that is happening, so they assume it does not exist. Of course, it does exist.

I have taught both of my children to stand up when they see someone being bullied. I have told that that certain words must never be tolerated in a school-setting and we have discussed with them, from a very early age, sexist language, racist language and homophobic language. (This was all long before we know our son was gay.) But we also gave them the tools to express themselves without being "snarky" or "snitches." For example, when my youngest (who is not gay) was asked if he was gay, he did not ignore it, nor did not retaliate. He said: "I don't know yet. I haven't gone through puberty yet." Then when he kept hearing the phrase "You're so gay." directed at him at other students, he went to a teacher he trusted, explained why he did not like what was happening and that teacher spoke to everyone. The issue was resolved and this kind of language is not longer happening.

It seems to me that your son is naturally the kind of person who speaks up. This can be a very important role in society. As his parent you will be able to guide him and teach how to speak up in a way that will not make him a target and that will possibly help others.

For age 3, what you are doing is fine. For my school age child, I've refined it to: if someone is being hurt (including having feelings hurt), you tell every time. If no one is being hurt and it doesn't involve you, then leave it for the teacher/parent to handle.

If you google "difference between tattling and telling" you'll get many helpful hits that will us help our kids know when it's important to get an adult involved, and when it isn't.

Here's one excellent site: http://www.togetheragainstbullying.org/the-difference-bet...

You have a few more years to go until he gets to what I call prime bullying age and your husband is right, however, it is a necessity to shout out these days, be the 'rat' so to speak because people simply cannot get away with things. I was just thinking about this and feel that when the time comes when it is a possibly real issue (who knows if or when or where) you will know what to do depending on rules of the institution or school something is taking place. It's so sad this even has to be an issue at the age of three.

"Nobody likes a rat?" What a horrible thing to tell a child. That simply tells a child that they shouldn't let adults know when someone could be harming them and they should in fact be speaking up. It's just as harmful as telling a little boy to "Be a Man." "Men Don't Cry."

If someone is doing something wrong and it's harming someone else, then tell every single time. That's my guideline for the girls if they ever have a question on their own safety about whether or not to tell... such as if it's a situation they're not involved in but are witnesses to an event. I teach my children to speak up and use their own voices, to be self-advocates and they've learned to speak up for others as well. If it's harmful to someone, be their voice.

It sounds like your son is learning the same lessons. The other father? Stuck in a machismo mode that's outdated and harmful.

he's only 3. he doesn't understand nuance.
there's not an age where he'll get nuance. you just incrementally add a snippet of explanation as it comes up naturally, and when he asks.
i certainly wouldn't make 'telling' seem pejorative, as labeling a child a 'rat' would imply. there ARE times it's necessary. but you can't sit down and try to pre-emptively explain them all to a 3 year old.
'pay attention to what YOU do. don't worry about billy' is about enough for a 3 year old. but 'policing' is a phase most kids go through. doesn't mean you shouldn't discuss it (in short simple terms) but don't overthink it.
i too find 'zero tolerance' exasperating and unenforceable.
khairete
S.

Your son is acting this way because he is learning about rules and how they work. He will mature and no longer do this. His brain now is unable to be aware of the nuances of making and enforcing rules. He is learning by doing. I suggest that you talk with him after a specific incident. Talk about what is appropriate and what is not. Not a lecture. A guided conversation.

Teachers know this is a developmental stage and will respond in a way
that will teach him. It's important to know this will be a process over 3 or so years and not not expect a change until he is more matur e. If you focus too much attention on this he will not understand and may get stuck at this level.

Your son is Ok. What he's doing is ok. You are a long way from needing to be concerned.

With my 8YO, I ask, did it hurt you. If she says yes and it was name calling, I just look at her and ask, "Really". She knows that name calling or I don't want to play with you doesn't matter, but no one is allowed to hit, kick, bite, or shove one another. So if that is the case, involve the teacher.

No, you're doing plenty for three. It will take a little time for him to get "no tattling" but he'll get it.

I'm your age and I find the "no tolerance" policies now are laughable. I wouldn't worry about anyone coming down too h*** o* kids for bullying. Gone are the days of school house paddling, humiliation in front of your peers, expulsions after one citation, and parents who would be even tougher when the kids got home than the school was.

Now it's the victims of bullying who pay the most.

At age three this is totally, utterly typical. He is told about rules and "you can do this, don't do that" all the time, so his behavior in policing other kids shows that he is internalizing those lessons. I have seen every three-year-old I know do this! He will indeed get past this stage; other kids will (as another poster rightly put it) tell him "You're not the boss of me" and so on.

Is he in preschool at all? That's a great place to learn that getting along with other kids doesn't mean being the rules cop -- but it does mean knowing that vital difference between "tattling and telling" that others have mentioned.

You do not want to make him feel that he needs to clam up to the point that if an adult needs "telling" he should not tell. It's time to work with him on the difference between when he's tattling and when he needs to get involved and tell an adult. This distinction is very important; it helps protect kids when someone (another kid or an adult too) instructs them "Dont' tell on me" but the kid knows, in his gut, that someone should be told.

If your concern is that he's telling other kids directly what to do -- that's typical, and again, the other kids will sort it. He will figure it out. Just reiterate that parents and teachers are there to watch the other kids' behavior and if he sees something really dangerous (and you will need to work with him on what "really dangerous" means) then he should say something but otherwise he can trust that teachers and parents are doing their jobs. (If he is being hit or teased etc. of course he does not have to wait for an adult to notice it before he tells another kid to stop --make sure he realizes that.)

I would not ever use "Nobody likes a rat." He's going to see himself negatively if he follows the rules, and the statement does absolutely nothing to teach him that there are gray areas where he does, absolutely, need to tell an adult about what he sees, and there are times when he needs to tell another kid to stop doing something that is imminently dangerous. Your friends are essentially training their child to say nothing, when what prevents bullying is -- saying something!

Get some books that feature discussions of "tattling versus telling" and find ways to talk about that, but don't over-criticize him for being a "rat" or internalizing the rules. It is far preferable to the kid who never realizes that rules are for him! And if he's not in preschool, consider doing it next year so he has a year of a good (part-time) preschool before he enters kindergarten. Preschool is for working out these kinds of dealing-with-others issues that kids this age have, before they are in K, where the academic pressure today means that teachers do not have time to spend on things like this.

One last thing -- What's behind the concern that he will be seen as some kind of bully if he tells other kids to follow the rules? The term bullying gets tossed around a bit too freely these days. I grew up in the 70s too and in those days he would have been called the teacher's pet, not the bully! The bullies are the ones who never manage to internalize any rules--not kids like yours who are learning them and just applying them the way a three-year-old would.

I would explain further what that means. I get what you mean but you might want to try words that the child is likely to hear somewhere else. Like in preschool or kindergarten. I hear the K teachers tell kids, "Is this something that I really need to know about or is this something that doesn't concern you?"

Sometimes "don't be a tattle tale" needs more clarity.

I think it depends on the situation.If their in a group setting doing a structured activity (like being in the classroom) where there is an adult in charge then he should be taught to only 'police' himself. But if there is no adult present and someone is being hurt then he should be taught to go find an adult.