My daughter is 13, in the 8th grade. She is smart, taking all of the advanced classes at school to earn high school credits, makes good grades, sweet and funny. She is also depressed, and if anyone reading this has a child with depression you know that every day is hard for them and us.
Yesterday the grade took a field trip to our VoTech school that the kids would enter their junior year if they want to. They split them off into groups of 6 per table in the commercial foods class and they were making cookies. Each table had a student from the school telling them what to do. The student told a girl, "Susie", at my daughters table to get 1 1/2 cups of sugar, then walked away. "Susie" gets the two measuring cups, walks to the sugar, comes back. My daughter says that each cup wasn't filled all the way, lacking about an inch to the top of each cup. My daughter said to "Susie" that she should fill them up all the way or the cookies would not turn out right (whenever we bake I tell her that when you bake your measurements have to be exact). "Susie" goes and fills the cups up, comes back, and says "Is that good enough for you" to which my daughter says "Sorry, I just thought they should be all the way up". BUT I can hear my daughter saying that...not "Oh, I'm sorry" but "Uh, so-rry". You know?
ANYWAY, then it was my daughters turn to get brown sugar. She goes up to the counter with the ingredients, and her science teacher, Mrs. Murphy, goes up to her and says " Are you always such a snitch?" My daughter is confused by this comment, not knowing what to say (and hopefully hearing a little voice that sounds like me saying "You best not talk back". So she says "Huh?" Mrs. Murphy then says " Are you always such a snitch, or just sometimes?" My daughter-" Ummmm.." Mrs. Murphy " I'll take that as a yes", and walks away..
Am I right in being pretty mad at this? I think that Mrs. Murphy went over the line, you know? Granted, my daughter was probably a smart alleck when she said what she said to "Susie", but is it something that her teacher needed to comment on to her? And, BTW, the school guidance counselor was in the room as well, someone that my daughter sees 2x a month. But Mrs. Murphy didn't say any of this so that the GC could hear, leading me to believe that she knew it was out of line, you know?
Am I over-reacting? If not, how should I handle it?
First of all, I am so glad that I wrote this to see what other reactions would be.
My daughter does have a tone of voice lots of times that makes me want to strangle her, and I am certain that other people hear it, too. She is so down sometimes she really can't help sounding hatefull, fresh, uncaring, whatever term you want to use.
I am not going to talk to the teacher, but I am going to keep it in my mind. What really is bothering me is that she said it quietly so that the GC didn't hear it, making me wonder why. I am thankful that she didn't say it loud so that the other kids heard it, but at the same time I don't think that she should have said anything at all. That comment is not an appropriate comment for a teacher to make in my opinion. I am livid at the teacher, but I also know that my daughter needs to watch how she uses her tone with other kids (and, FYI, "Susie" is not a friend of hers, just an acquantance, making the whole situation worse I think).
God, raising tweens/teens is hard!
B. from Chesapeake (close to me, I think) It was the plastic cups, the kind that you do fill to the top. And my daughter has a whole BAG of chips on her shoulder, at least with me!
And midol is a wonderful idea. Maybe even two.
My guess? You're not getting the whole story. Kids are going to tell the version that will be most complementary to them.
The story doesn't make sense, about the cups - were they 3/4 cups? Or regular 1 cups?
I guess I'm not understanding any of this.
First off, 1 1/2 cups sugar, if you have 2 one cup containers, would be down by about an inch from the top (2 X 3/4 = 1 1/2) - depending on the measuring cups used. If you have the kind you fill then level off the top I would be wrong about that.
Second, 'snitching' would have been your daughter telling the teacher the measurement was not right and she didn't do that - she just told her friend she thought it was wrong.
Third, I don't understand the teachers snarky attitude (does the teacher and guidance counselor know about your daughters depression?).
Forth, it's a batch of cookies. So what if they turn out horrible. An awful batch or two will teach prospective cooks to be more careful about following directions and be more specific about measurements.
And lastly - some teens go through a 'chip on their shoulder' stage which brings out that tone that drives people nuts. Depressed or not, sounding like a snot is going to raise peoples hackles.
Sounds like EVERYONE involved could have used a Midol that day.
If this sort of thing happens all the time - you need to say something.
Be aware that saying anything to the teacher will only make her think your daughter really IS a snitch - because she told you about it (which is a sneaky backhanded nasty tricky business on the teachers part - I can't stand people who set up catch-22 situations).
If it's a one time occurrence, I'd chalk it up as a bad day and let it go.
What gets me is that either: 1 - this teacher doesn't know the meaning of "snitch" or 2 - she was using that word as a replacement for curse word that rhymes with it. My guess would be the 2nd - and I'm not normally one to assume the worst.
There were WAY better ways to address this situation with your daughter - and I believe it should have been addressed.
I'm about to be certified to hold classes in a personality profile called the People Code. It sounds like your daughter is Blue personality in it - they (we, as I am one) can be easily depressed, tend to be really h*** o* ourselves, self-righteous, highly critical of others, and we try to control others.
In this situation, your duaghter should learn to let the person in charge - the vocational student in this situation - handle anything that's wrong. It wasn't her place to call out the other girl for making a mistake. And she needs to learn to be less self-righteous which is probably where her tone to the other girl really came from (not from being depressed).
That said, the teacher in this situation was wrong in that she simply should have asked your daughter to let the person in charge make any corrections and to be careful about her tone, that she was rude to the other girl.
Teachers are human. They're not going to respond to every kid in 100% the "right" way in regard to every students individual issues 100% of the time.
That said, it was her science teacher. She knows your daughter. And the comment was snarky.
Definitely snarky. Unless there's more to the story than you're getting.
And when you think about it, the actual comment "Are you always such a snitch?" doesn't even apply to what your daughter said to the girl about getting fuller cups. Snitch? Not really. Goody Two Shoes, Miss Perfection, Miss Bossy.....maybe. Snitch? Doesn't make sense unless your daughter pulled an authority figure into the issue--the student helper, perhaps? Maybe there was some dialogue that's been left out....
I can see the other responses that you got for some reason but thought I would offer my opinion. I think you should reconsider talking to the teacher. It was absolutely inappropriate for the teacher to say that to your daughter. It may have been appropriate to say something but it should have been more constructive and certainly not juvenile. I would also consult with the GC just to let them know what happened just in case this becomes a pattern. You have this instance documented. Is the teacher aware of your daughters depression? Perhaps that will help the teacher deal better in the classroom.
just my 2 cents...
I think the teacher was way out of line. Even if your daughter acted inappropriately, the teacher could have approached it in a more adult manner. She should have informed your daughter that her behavior/tone/whatever was unacceptable without having to resort to calling her names.
I don't know how long ago this happened, but I would have a meeting with the teacher, the GC, and your daughter. Get both sides of the story. Ask the GC to help the teacher understand what your daughter is going through and how the teacher can help. Similarly, have the GC help your daughter understand how your tone/behavior/words affect others.
hope that helps!
First of all, I don't care how nasty a student is, I do not think it is EVER appropriate to call ANYONE names! Especially a teacher to a student. A teacher is a huge influence to a student and behaving in a way that is not ok for a student to do is just irresponsible. This teacher chooses to work with teenagers, I am quite sure she can control herself in how she behaves to them or she needs a new line of work. I would be furious! On top of it all, a snitch is a tattle-tale, I do not get what she means by calling your daughter a snitch, it doesn't even make sense.
I would talk to the teacher and the counselor, this is about your child and teaching her to be the best she can be. This is not about making sure the teacher's feelings are not hurt.
Good luck!
I wouldn't count on this being entirely accurate. I don't think that's an appropriate comment for a teacher to make, but I would not make your daughter the victim here. When my daughter was that age, she did suffer from depression and it is an incredibly difficult road - but it doesn't excuse being bossy , fresh or anything like that. This does not sound like a depression issue, but more like a typical 13 year old know it all issue (and I can't see how you'd be right in filling measuring cups to the top unless you're talking about those metal scoop ones). I would not approach the teacher. I would approach your daughter and handle this as a peer issue. She may have less issues with depression if she doesn't say things that make the other kids annoyed with/avoid her - the teen years are a lonely time if peers avoid you. I am sorry if this is not what you are looking for
Wow! does her teacher not understand the definition of a "snitch?" It's not like she went and told the teacher "Susie did this wrong Mrs. Murphy." I would want a sit down with the teacher especially since (in the schools & at home for that matter) we're always pushing for being truthful and letting a staff know when something is going on. I think this sends a mixed message even if your DD doesn't know what she meant by snitch, the word is out there and now she's going to want to know what it means possibly feeling ashamed when she does find out what it means. I would get our of the teacher what was said before pointing fingers, but would let her know either way (because she may not admit to saying this) we should encourage our kids to be truthful and to also let the teacher know why your DD would have done what she did in assisting Susie. If this teacher is saying this to your daughter with another adult in the room what is she saying when she's alone?
WHat I'm not clear on, J., is if Ms. Murphy is a regular teacher to your child or a technical school teacher who has never met your daughter. If she has never met your daughter, she is out of line.
If she is your daughter's teacher, you should talk to the guidance counselor and the principal. The reason I am saying this, isn't to act as if you should ignore your daughter's "tone". To be truthful, there is a big difference in having a "tone" with another student, and with a teacher. If she had given that "tone" to Ms. Murphy, the conversation shouldn't have been about being a snitch, but having a rude "tone" with an adult. But that's not what happened.
The reason you should talk to the guidance counselor and principal is that with a documented depression diagnosis, she needs to be treated differently than a regular smart-mouthed teen. And if Ms. Murphy is in your school and deals with your daughter, she needs to be told this point blank. I'd either demand a meeting with you in attendance, or have assurances that she knows this and will comply in the future.
However, I wouldn't tell your daughter that this was inappropriate. It is done now, and you don't want your daughter to take away the wrong lesson, that a rude tone is acceptable.
It IS nice that she knows that not enough sugar will ruin the cookies. Too bad Ms. Murphy doesn't seem to know that!
Dawn
Wow. If her teacher approached her in this manner, no matter the interaction between your daughter and the other child, it is completely out of line and I would be livid. As a teacher, especially a teacher to pre-teens and teens, she has no business talking down to them in this manner. Self esteem is very important and humiliating your daughter who already suffers from depression is cruel. If I were you I would speak with the teacher about communication and the intent your daughter had behind her remark and then I would kindly ask her to refrain from talking down to her. Ask her instead to come to you if she has any trouble at all with your daughters behavior or tone and you will make she that her actions are corrected. Depending on her reaction to your little talk, I would also consider talking to her superior.
Start documenting everything that goes on in the class.
Have your daughter tell you her side.
Find out from other mothers if there are other kids having the same issues.
Get as many facts as you can out of your daughter, even if she was snotty to the teacher.
Im sure this isn't the first time and won't be the last.
With documentation then go to the teacher first then the principal.
Take your daughter to an outside counselor, school counselors are not really equipped to handle teenage depression.
It is hard to go against the grain. I had to do it against a High School Engish teacher. But after I brought in the facts he was fired the next day.
Good luck, you are her advocate and teachers have no right to speak to any child that way.
Hi, J.:
It seems this situation has caused you alot of stress.
I would suggest that you have a conversation with the teacher
just to check things out.
Then write what the results were.
Just a thought.
D.
Oh God, I'm getting a headache from this post. My immediate response is to tell you to go down to that school and let the "teacher" respond to someone her own size. As a kid who was bullied (yes, that is the right word) by teachers I have about thiiiiiiiiiis much tolerance for teacher's acting badly. Do I believe in respecting adults? Absolutely. But when a teacher calls a kid a name, game over. I'm sure you are more level headed than I am about this, and a huge KUDOS to you for considering your daughter's current behavioral disposition, but let me give you something to consider. Your daughter spends all day with her teachers. If it's not a safe environment, it's not okay. I still struggle (clearly) with the harassment my teachers dished out to me- I'm almost 30. Mine was worse than this, but then again it started somewhere didn't it? My mom wishes she would have done something back then, and to be honest they got away with it because they got away with it. Just a thought.
I would talk to the teacher IN PERSON and tell her that it's obvious SHE SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING.
What she said was NOT in line with being a role model.
What she said was NOT professional, kind or in any way kind.
I would make sure that the counselors and the principal are in the room and hold them all accountable. I can't believe that ANY counselor would allow that type of talk from a teacher to a student.
ALL of them were wrong in not stepping up. The teacher needs to be taught a lesson in humility, dignity and professionalism - something she clearly does not encompass.
I wouldn't stop until it was resolved....so your daughter isn't perfect - so what?! That does NOT give a TEACHER the right to belittle her. That counselors saw it and didn't stand up - they are just as much to blame.
On a side note - if you don't have enough sugar when baking cookies - they will not come out right. So your daughter was right to state that the other girl didn't have enough sugar for the recipe. So if our daughter said it snarkily - okay - someone should have told her she could said it NICER...
I don't quite understand the teacher saying what she did or the details exactly but I just wanted to say, depressed or not, maybe you could teach your daughter to not be so sharp in her tone if you sometimes want to 'strangle' her, others may too. She may not realize how that upsets people sometimes. Otherwise it sounds like this should be let go and just ignore it.
No, you are not over-reacting. The teacher was snarky, and she REALLY could have found a much better way to address the issue (if at all) than to say, "Are you always such a snitch." I don't understand why she didn't address Susie's rude remark, "Is that good enough for you?" THAT was the rude comment--your daughter just responded to the rude comment Susie returned with.
If this were my classroom, I probably would have just come over to the group and gave a general instruction to the group that they need to be respectful of one another and work cooperatively. There was no need to single out your daughter for trying to be precise.
I have been the student that the teacher says awful things to, just because I was doing what I thought was right. It is terrible when a teacher crosses the line and berates a child, but it does happen. How did I react when this teacher did it to me? I killed him with kindness. Giant smiles every morning--even MORE enthusiastic participation in his class--he left me alone after he saw that he didn't break my spirit (although on the inside I SEETHED for years over him telling me (in front of my entire 8th grade homeroom) that he hated me).
Best of luck to your daughter. I hope that she never encounters the kind of teacher-directed bullying that has been in the news the past few days. If she does, please be a very vocal advocate for her.
Considering that perhaps (who knows?) your daughter's tone seemed unacceptable to her friend ,who then spoke to her teacher in a perhaps (who knows?) odd tone, and then that the teacher's tone seemed (who knows?) unacceptable when your daughter spoke to her (who knows?) with a catty tone, when you schedule a face to face meeting, done via e-mail, be sure that you carefully approach the matter with a professional and caring tone, in both the e-mail and when speaking in person. That's the way to win your case. It is so easy to overreact to someone talking in a disrespectful tone, child or adult. Maintain that you expect that your daughter speaks in an appropriate tone, and expects her interactions with both peers and adults to be the same. Last night at P-T conferences, I actually had to ask a student to talk to her mother with a more respectful tone (this is after hearing it towards me from her during class and towards her father the previous day). The mother thanked me and the high schooler looked at me in shock. Tone is so important. Best wishes.
Your daughter was probably out of line with her tone of voice but she's 13 - what's the teacher's excuse? I would be pissed and report her. She should never say anything like that to a child! If she had a problem with your daughter's comments or tone, she should have pulled her into a hallway and said, "you need to be more understanding of people's shortcomings" or "let the teacher tell the other kids what needs to be done" or "you may have hurt some feelings back there - your tone wasn't very nice," Something CONSTRUCTIVE instead of trying to break her down and label her a "snitch" in front of everyone! Yea, you need to meet with her, the counselor (to represent your daughter) and her superior.
I personally think I would tell your daughter that you are so sorry that the teacher hurt her feelings...and let her talk it out to you. I do not think I would go to the teacher...first of all...it could be that it isn't being reported precisely the way it happened...and then you are going to set up a confrontation between your daughter and her teacher. I would discuss with your daughter the idea of maybe backing off a little from telling the other girl what to do....that should have been the teachers' responsibility.
I am not saying your daughter was in the wrong...just that you need to take a middle of the road approach to this and not build it up into something bigger than it deserves.
